"So what do gamers actually want?" Topic

Been looking at games in the past that have either become classics or which are doing well currently.

On one hand, the big shiny full colour books with attached lines of miniatures tend to do well (Bolt Action, Flames of War etc.)

Everyone likes to complain about those guys but they seem to do very well.

When you get into the middle tier, things get sort of interesting though.

Some games that seem very popular:

Grunts – This one seems to have become very popular with the 15mm crowd. On the surface, its a pretty average game maybe. It looks decent. The mechanics are decent. Army design is decent. Nothing stands out as exceptional but it does all the parts "good enough".

Stargrunt – Have fallen out of popularity. Terrible organization and zero rules support but was a fairly realistic game at a time when scifi just didn't tend to do that.

Chain Reaction – THW has become a little empire but thinking back on the very early days, the original Chain reaction was a mess. Figuring out the rules was a challenge and the concepts were not explained well. But it had some pretty radical ideas and it caught on like wildfire.

Too Fat Lardies – These guys get a lot of flak for their old "agree with the opponent how easy a shot is to make" approach and they've toned that down with Chain of Command, but at the same time, they've always had a large, loyal fan base due to clever ideas and a feeling of fidelity to the history.

Crossfire – Was the grand daddy of club WW2 gaming in a lot of areas despite basically only being a workable infantry game in a period everyone wants to use tanks in.

AK47 – Another game that became extremely popular despite the rules being a bit of a mess. Everything works differently but again, it did something noone had really done before.

I'm sure I am missing plenty of stuff and I hate to sound like I am dissing these games. I picked games I have played myself and still enjoy.

It seems that most of the popular games that make it big are still plagued by big issues or glaring flaws, yet if you have a clever enough idea, people will absolutely support it.

So do we buy games for that one clever idea? For the packaging?

What say you?

A really nice rulebook with good visual layout and photos of well-painted miniatures can make a huge difference. For me, a large part of the enjoyment I get out of games is the spectacle, and an inspiring rulebook can really show you what's possible. A stapled, photocopied rule "book" with no consideration to layout or design is not inspiring, to say the least.

But the rules themselves are also hugely important. An example: some of my best gaming experiences have been with Force On Force. FoF has a very visually pretty rulebook, but there's a lot more there as well. The games it produces are often incredibly tense, and you're forced to make very hard decisions in order to accomplish your mission. The mechanics of the rules, with their action/reaction system, give a distinct sense that things are happening all around you, barely (or not at all) under your control, and you have to be constantly thinking on your feet and allocating resources around the field to try and accomplish your mission.

So, my answer to your original question is: it's all important.

It is funny how "regional" our hobby can be, because I've never seen any of the rules on your popular list get played around here.

Yeah, I'm sure it's totally regional :)

I like big expensive rulebooks with lots of photos with rules that have no merit…remember Napoleon from Foundry. :-)

Yes, I bought it. :-(

I wouldn't say Stargrunt has gotten zero support, it's just that it's now called Tomorrow's War and supported by Osprey.
GZG seems to have given up rules writing in favor of being solely a manufacturer of miniatures.

Well, as an illustrator I'd say – rules with lots of illustrations! Just kidding, what I'm looking for is a good, playable set of rules written with clarity, with some clean, clear design but I'm not all that impressed with endless photos of eye candy.

If there are no pretty pictures, that is a definite no-sale.

I hate reading rule books in general. If it isn't funny in some way or informative, which they usually aren't, then it is a hard slog for me.

Pretty pictures will always make that easier.

I miss the old mimeographed rules with no pictures. Pretty pictures just make ashamed of my own painting.

But, to answer the title and ignoring the OP's OP…

I want what all normal people want. Drugs, money, women, power, and a bucket of red dice that will only roll 8s. Or white dice that will only roll 1s.

And Oktoberfest available all year.

My favorite games are IABSM, even before the latest edition with the fancy graphics, Fireball Forward – which is all black and white with very few line drawing type pictures in it, and Fistful of Tows which is once again black and white with very few pictures.

If I want eye candy I can troll through the internet. For rules I want something that tries to get the maximum simulation in the least complexity – with the exception of ASL.

John,

Spaten Oktoberfest is no longer seasonal – they make it year-round now. However, it is definitely a European style Oktoberfest, noticeably less bold and malty than the American style Oktoberfest. Can't help you out with the drugs, money, women, or power, though. Or the dice thing. Sorry.

As for what Wargamers want . . . everything. At different times and in different places, everything. In this hobby more than any other there are no standards, no universal trends, no authorities. It's enough to warm the cockles of this old anarchist's heart.

Hear, hear!

I want rules that are easy to understand, with clear examples of play and most of all are fun! I am done with rivet counting and calculus.

War Atisan said:
"Spaten Oktoberfest is no longer seasonal – they make it year-round now. However, it is definitely a European style Oktoberfest, noticeably less bold and malty than the American style Oktoberfest".

Yeah, but at least it is a true Oktoberfest brewed in the only German City able to make that claim for their bier! Still one of the best brewed along with Hacker-pschoor. I do not understand American "Oktoberfest" styles that try to hop up the bier in a fashion that was never intended to this amazing style of Marzen or Helles (depending on the brewery).

Respectively,

Doug

American "craft" brewers tend to get carried away. I fully expect to see a S'Mores blueberry IPA soon.

Well, that takes the conversation positively off the rails. Perhaps the OP should have specified that he meant what gamers want in a wargame ,although in my case it could be argued that beer is part of a wargame.

My comment about European style Oktoberfest was intended to be informative, not critical. I like both styles, my favorite being the one from August Schell in New Ulm, Minnesota, who brew very much in the traditional German style and have done so for over 150 years.

There is almost as much chaos and anarchy among craft brewers as there is among wargamers . . . something for everybody (but I'll take a pass on the S'Mores blueberry IPA, thank you very much).

A great idea? Yes, I'd be likely attracted by that (anyone seen one recently?) … pretty pictures? No … especially if they are the unrelated to the text decorative type.

Phil

Nah, forget all the fluff. What wargamers want are great mates to play regularly with.

No matter how colourful rule sets are, no matter how good a set of rules is, if you're playing with a bunch of dipsticks the game will always 'settle' at the level of those playing the game.

Just my tuppence.

Fat Wally hit the nail on the head. The rest is all crap.

You can have the most crappy game, owrst rules, most ugly miniatures, and terrible terrain but if you play it with a great bunch of guys it will be a smashing success. On the other hand if your gaming with a bunch of argumentative, nasty, unfriendly, unpleasant rules lawyers, even God couldn't rescue it with the best rules, terrain, miniature, snd scenario.. Don't believe me??? Look around you.

The only thing that makes games bad are nasty people. Thankfully they mostly go into Napoleonics and leave the rst of us alone.

…someone else to set things up. I have a feeling that might be behind some of the "regionality". This location has a dude who will set up this; that location, a chick who will set up that.

And following that up:
…chicks.

In a wargame, me, personally (vice what do "wargamers", whomever that is, want):
… more time spent thinking about my troops and less time spent thinking about the rules.

I am way off the normal. I don't like card driven games, I don't need army lists and big flashy books are expensive and take too long to read through. I guess I am more of a Chris Peers or short style quick rules guy myself.

Wargamers want to be loved and admired, have plenty to eat and drink, and to buy a set of perfect rules, laid out in opulent style, for $5. USD

OKay, so what we have:

Short.
Comprehensive.
Explains every situation.
Leaves room for interpretation.
Not a lot of pictures.
Lots of pictures.
Hot girls (or dudes).
Comes with a slice of pizza and a mug of beer.

:)

Personally I find big heavy hardbacks loaded with pictures a distraction, just give me the mechanisms and the playshests and let me get on with it. A few sample scenarios are always useful.

Does that make a difference if it's a book in a store or a PDF though?

PDF's full of pictures are frustrating to navigate and print, while a book I am picking up in a store obviously has to fight a bit harder to win eyeballs?

> (great idea) anyone seen one recently?
Yes actually, the rules for "Guns of Gettysburg" are like nothing I have seen before, although they were used in the previous Napoleonic game. Makes for a great game.

> Comes with a slice of pizza and a mug of beer.
Substitute Diet Doctor Pepper for the beer…

> You can have the most crappy game, owrst rules, most ugly miniatures, and terrible terrain but if you play it with a great bunch of guys it will be a smashing success.

Have to disagree, I will not play CWC or any of it's ilk with anyone for example. I can live with crappy terrain and miniatures but not with players I can't stand or rules I can't stand.

Interesting topic for me since I am getting ready to print up my first set of rules. I have debated this in my mind quite a bit and I'm not sure that there is a definitive answer. For me the production cost of a glossy book is a bit much for the first run (since I have no idea how well they will sell). The things that I did try to put a priority on are:
1. Easy to read with examples throughout explaining how mechanics work, with a few diagrams as well.
2. Quick play charts in the back of the book
3. Army list samples.
4. A wire spiral binding so the book can be paid flat on the table without eventually destroying the binding.
5. Cover art by a friend of mine who is a talented artist.
6. A few photos scattered through the book for some eye candy.
We'll see if this works or not. Ultimately I feel like if the rules are fun and playable people will buy them regardless of the look. I just was not prepared to spend a huge amount on these to get them to market.

Allen

I live in Southern California and I have attended conventions back East and in Ohio and the Northwest. AK-47 still gets a lot of play, and I do see Crossfire occasionally, but nothing else on your list.

AK-47 gets played still….wait for it….because it is a fun game. The production values of the rules leave much to be desired. The rules are just a blast to play and give reasonable results. Crossfire has a novel game mechanic and has its following. It is not my cup of tea. I think a miniatures version of old Squad Leader would be better.

I like games that play in a couple of hours or less, are fun, the rules are nuanced enough to satisfy the strategist/tactician and the game system is not designed to bankrupt the players. DBA is my favorite game. Miniatures versions of classics like Panzer Leader are also great. I also enjoy AK-47, Wings of War and CY6.

Free PDF rules and <$1 plastic 28mm figures.

Make that free PDF rules of not more than 12 A4 pages and hard plastic 10mm figures!