"Today's TMP header, did it happen at all?" Topic

A while back on TMP we went through Billy Bishop's reworked rep and the famous morning raid, etc.

Has anyone changed their opinion? Got anymore evidence moving your opinion either way?

I don't. And I still believe he did the raid and shot up a temporary airfield of a Jasta in transit to another aerodrome, hence the lack of evidence for the target as described by Bishop. I've always had difficulties believing that the entire raid was a fabrication of Bishop's, and pushed by the "media" out to make him into a war hero to raise morale, etc….

I haven't changed my opinion, either – so I guess that's one vote for each side! ; )

I also haven't changed my opinion that the scenario makes for a good solo game!

Many of his squadron mate did not believe him

Many? Or one or two? How many is "many"? Some 200 pilots applied to enter 60 Squadron under Bishop's command.

He had enemies. Bishop was egotistical and annoying. He was also a very good shot, which was why he was so damned egotistical.

It seems that the only evidence of the raid not taking place, is the lack of evidence on the German side. Yet a Jasta in transit does not require to keep records, and the Jasta 20 diary was destroyed during WW2. The sector was defended by Werner Voss Jasta 5's commander at the time. German's were not in the habit of being candid with the facts when popularity of a media hero was at risk. And German reporting was inconsistent and unreliable in various times and places throughout the war. Admittedly British record keeping was even more casual and selective. But Bishop's score and the rate of verification is at least as good as the other great British aces' rate of verification.

So I don't doubt that the raid took place, that details about it are controversial, even exaggerated later by Bishop himself (to his even later embarrassment looking back). And German lack of verification is explicable, so "lack of evidence" is not evidence of Bishop concocting the raid. He asked for others to participate beforehand, hardly the action of one getting ready to create a whopper to earn more medals, etc….

To my mind the strongest evidence regarding Bishop's failing as a credible man lies in the fact that both Grid Caldwell and Willie Fry (who both served with him in 60 Squadron) never backed him up. Indeed both remained close-lipped on commenting on his character for the remainder of their lives.

Wouldn't that fall in the category of "if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all?" They obviously didn't like Bishop as a person, a lot of people didn't once they got to know him. But a lot of other people didn't have a problem with Bishop while knowing him very well, e.g. his mechanic….

" But Bishop's score and the rate of verification is at least as good as the other great British aces' rate of verification. "

Only about 10 to 22 of his Kills can be verified with witnesses or corresponding German losses !
Not a good ratio.

It was not a question of his personality. It was concerning the raid that never happen. Both men refused to talk about it due to what they would have said. In fact when the postage stamp of the raid came out only one out of four 60 squadron men agreeded to sign the first day issue. The other four (including Fry and Gridwell) wanted nothing to do with it. Joseph Mai, who flew and fought with jasta 5 also said it never happened. He insisted the flights were no where near that area. Existent german records confirm this. And yes there are most of the records in existence today. Finally check the Grub street publications. They have a hard time connecting any of Bishops victories with german records.

"…verified with witnesses or corresponding German losses"

"…connecting any of Bishops victories with german records."

Related links:
claims link (note the number of 'alone' entries*)
losses link

*this is why, jfl, when a player is flying as Bishop in one of my games he can only score hits if he is out of LOS of the other pilots. ; )

I don't doubt that "most of the [German] records in existence today" are most of what the Germans kept. Record keeping is problematic on both sides, for the reasons I pointed out on the German side, since it is German reporting that is appealed to from both sides of the argument about the raid happening or not happening in the first place.

At best, "lack of evidence" is the argument for disbelieving in the raid.

As for Bishop's score, other top aces have similar rates of verification, especially on the British side. And yes, they are not good rates compared to the existing German records. But there is that problematic complex again. How good, accurate and truthful were the German records?

Josef Mai was not with Jasta 20. I see a problem here, accepting selective observations which support ones pov. Bishop was admired rather than vilified by German air war veterans, even offered membership in their First World War German Aces Association.

Maybe this treatise link needs to be dissected. We didn't do that last time, iirc. I think the author makes a good defense….