"WOTR French/Breton Mercenaries" Topic

Having just started out playing the Coat of Steel(COS) WOTR rules, i am i need of some French/Breton mercenaries for my Lancastrian troops.

I know i could just use generic Men at arms and foot but i'm not like that. What sort of banners if any would the French MAA carry, would they be the Generic French banners with Fleur d Lys?

The mercenary X-Bow what sort of Livery would they wear, i have seen on the Perry's box art Red or Blue with a white cross. Having never painted or collected French Medieval troops i am at a loss. Google fu seems to be failing me.

And how do Bretons differ from French??

French mercenaries are most likely to have been pikemen. The Perry Mercenaries box shows them in a red livery.

I am not aware of any evidence to support the presence of French mercenaries armed with crossbows at any battle of the WOTR.

Burgundian mercenaries are known to have used handguns.

I don't think there are any substantive differences between French and Bretons except that the Duchy of Brittany was independent from France until 1488 and so Bretons would have had a different livery. The Breton flag is a black cross on a white background.
link

There is a theory that the French mercenaries in Tudor's army at Bosworth were pikemen, enumerated in Michael Jones' book on Bosworth and hotly disagreed with by some others. It is a bit tentative: an apparently lost letter, alluded to in a 19th-century journal article on the francs-archers, in which the author says he was at Bosworth and refers to himself as an "archer du camp". The "gens du camp" were the new French infantry created in 1480, who were mostly armed as pikemen. They were disbanded in 1483, so Jones argues that many would have been available to be picked up by Tudor. But really the only thing we know for certain about the French at Bosworth is that one of them called himself an archer…

In their own armies, the French wore a white cross and the Bretons a black one. But they are unlikely to have kept this national distinctions when in a foreign army.

So all French mercenaries were Pikemen, i find that hard to believe. With the large number of X-Bow used in the French army i would of assumed they would be some transported over here.
Was Burgundy the only nation to supply X-bow? I am trying to tie down the forces of the Earl of Wiltshire's when they landed in Pembroke in 1461.

With the large number of X-Bow used in the French army i would of assumed they would be some transported over here.

The French, Bretons and Burgundians all relied on the warbow/longbow as their main missile weapon during the WOTR period and fielded archers by the thousand in battle. The crossbow was very much a secondary weapon and usually not found amoung the professional troops in France. (Some Franc-Archers did have crossbows though)
The only period sources that I have read which refer to the arms of the French troops sent to England during the WOTR refer to them as archers.

The livery on the Perry WOTR Mercenary box set is for the Duchy of Burgundy at the time ruled by Charles the Bold who fell to a Halberd at the Battle of Nancy. Charles was married to Edward the IV's sister Margaret making for some interesting possibilities about the line of succession for England if Charles had not died so young. While Charles could not have taken the throne his son most certainly would have a claim.

So all French mercenaries were Pikemen, i find that hard to believe.

Well, I didn't say all, I said they would have most likely been pikemen.

The livery on the Perry WOTR Mercenary box set is for the Duchy of Burgundy

The main picture on the front of the Perry Mercenaries box is indeed troops of the Duchy of Burgundy.

However, you will find other European liveries (including the French red with white cross) in a set of small illustrations on the back of the box.

Well, that post got thoroughly destroyed. I'll try again.

Digressing from the 1461 mercenaries: As I said above, it's been suggested that the French mercenaries in 1485 were recruited from the "gens du camp" of 1480-83. At link is an article that reckons these men were organized into "bandes" of 800 pikemen and 200 crossbows each. Does anyone know a source for this? I haven't come across one.

I very much doubt if the mercenaries of 1461 were pikemen, because the experiment of 1480 seems to have been the first large-scale use of native French pikes. Even the use of "lances" by some of the francs-archers seems to date only from their expansion in 1469.

What are often mentioned in French documents (going on those quoted by Contamine in "Guerre, État et Société à la fin du Moyen Âge. Études sur les armées des rois de France, 1337-1494") are pole-arm men, guisarmiers or voulgiers – equivalent to English bills. I suspect the troops of 1461 might have been a mixture of these with archers and/or crossbowmen.

GurKhan has hit the money. That's my best guess also.

Thanks GurKhan any ideas on painting these…do i go with the red with white cross on the rear of the Perry's box set?

Well, as I said earlier, the white cross is the French national emblem, it marks you as part of the French army, so I doubt that French mercenaries in foreign service would wear it. Earlier in the mediaeval period for instance you do see foreign troops in English armies wearing the St George red cross, to mark them as part of the English army. I would guess, and it's no more than that, that they might possibly be issued with their employer's livery – whether that would be Ormonde of Wiltshire's or the Queen's or whatever.

Oh, and for 15th-century Bretons:
huchehault.com/xv/huch-f.htm – the "documentation historique" page has a couple of interesting bits

PDF link

I would guess, and it's no more than that, that they might possibly be issued with their employer's livery – whether that would be Ormonde of Wiltshire's or the Queen's or whatever.

I disagree. To wear the employer's livery would imply, by the standards of the time, that you were part of his affinity and serving under a "livery and maintenance" arrangement. Mercenaries were quite different. The arrangement was purely financial. They could (and often did) sell their services to the highest bidder. Far too complicated to keep changing shirts!

IMHO it is far more likely that Mercenary bands, if not wearing their national livery (as a sign that they were supplied by their country for foreign service), would wear their own colours. If France or Burgundy (or anyone else) sent troops to fight in the English wars then they could justifiably seek some share of the rewards.

Reading around this topic, I found an interesting post by Daniel S on the subject of Francs-archers here ( at 18 Mar 2010 6:51 a.m. ):
TMP link
from that thread:
"Following the defeat in the battle of Guinegate 1479 Lois XI rearmed most of the Francs-Archers with pike and halberd and only kept a small 'elite' armed with bow. "

MajorB's probably right in the case of actual "mercenary bands" with a continuing existence, like Italian condottieri, but we don't know that the French were anything like that. If (for example) Louis simply gave Queen Margaret permission to raise men in France for foreign service, then their new employer would either issue them with a uniform surcoat in colours of said employer's choice, or they'd have no livery at all.

The post-Guinegatte troops in Daniel's post are the "gens du camp" of 1480-83 that I have already mentioned. Strictly, I don't think they were francs-archers at all – their legal status was different – but they replaced the francs-archers and may have included some of the same men.

If (for example) Louis simply gave Queen Margaret permission to raise men in France for foreign service, then their new employer would either issue them with a uniform surcoat in colours of said employer's choice, or they'd have no livery at all.

I think it's the difference between recruiting individual men for one's own retinue (not that Margaret, being a woman, would have had a retinue of her own) as opposed to paying for the mercenary services of a formed body. In the former case, yes, that would have been a "livery and maintenance" agreement and the individual men would have taken their employer's livery. In the latter case it was purely a financial transaction. Livery and maintenance did not apply and therefore no requirement to wear the employer's livery.

In other words, the wearing of livery was a personal, rather than a corporate, thing.

I've been doing some digging myself and found the following "French" in the Lancastrian order of battle.

John Alderley of Guisnes France
Edward and Thomas Brampton of Guisnes France
Thomas Crawford of Calais
Thomas Thompson of France

Also a John Donne of Picardy who was born there but is in fact Welsh.

So this makes me think that these so called French mercenaries are actually Anglo lords and Retinue from France and not actually Frenchmen.

both Guines(Guisnes) and Calais were English territory at the time though, so those named would not have been considered French.

Exactly which makes me think that the chronicles stating french mercenaries are actually English come over from France.

The main body of the Calais garrison remained loyal to Warwick who was Captain of Calais, however the small garrisons of Hammes and Guines were pro-Lancastrian and there was small scale skirmishing even after the castles fell into Yorkist hands as Lancastrians & French raided the Calais area. Some inviduals from these garrisons may well have joined Wiltshire's expedition but I doubt that these small garrisons could have supplied much in the way of troops without removing their ability to mantain the two castles.

Yeah sorry i misread your post.

IIRC someone has conjected the number of exiles that accompanied Tudor and whilst there was a good number of them, their numbers were to few to represent the full invasion force, the balance being French and Welsh, I have always considered these French Troops to be troops in the service of Louis "sub-contracted" to Tudor for the duration of his campaign.

Earlier references to mercenaries, ie those led by Pierre du Breze(sp) were unemployed troops that Margaret of Anjou was permitted to recruit to her cause, so therefore would have taken on her (Husbands/sons) livery. Well at least thats how I view it.

I have always considered these French Troops to be troops in the service of Louis "sub-contracted" to Tudor for the duration of his campaign.

Agreed. And these French would be considered mercenaries for that reason.

Earlier references to mercenaries, ie those led by Pierre du Breze(sp) were unemployed troops that Margaret of Anjou was permitted to recruit to her cause, so therefore would have taken on her (Husbands/sons) livery. Well at least thats how I view it.

But if they were individually recruited and wore livery they would not be, by definition, mercenaries.

Depends on your definition of mercenary really, one of which is "A professional soldier hired for service in a foreign army", though I see your point.

Depends on your definition of mercenary really,

As far as I can tell, only foreign troops are referred to as mercenaries in the WOTR.

Think I've lost the plot of this discussion now lol. My point was that even though (possibly) individually recruited and liveried the fact that they were foreign makes them mercenaries in my eyes.

My point was that even though (possibly) individually recruited and liveried the fact that they were foreign makes them mercenaries in my eyes.

And this is where we disagree. IMHO, in 15th century terms a man individually recruited and liveried – and thus under the terms of "livery and maintenance" (see further posts above) would not be considered to be a mercenary. Whether the man was foreign or not was irrelevant.

Yeah, we'll have to disagree, though im not saying in any way either of us is right or wrong(its something, unfortunately like much of this period, that we will probably never know the right or wrong of), I can see and to some degree can agree with your viewpoint, but even liveried a 15th century English soldier faced with a foreign soldier on English soil would consider them a mercenary regardless of the niceties of the correct terminology IMHO.

BF Andy, how are you liking the CoS rules??

Dilettante, i love the rules them selves BUT the set up is a bit long winded especially when coupled with the campaign COP.
The games run like a story almost with so many nuances.

I've downloaded it and I really like the specific commanders and the flava. But getting all those cards and counters printed and laminated is a big lift.

Oh, and for 15th-century Bretons:
huchehault.com/xv/huch-f.htm – the "documentation historique" page has a couple of interesting bits

Thanks GurKhan – I'm not sure if pictures of my good self count as "interesting bits" :) but it reminds me that I have not updated these pages since a VERY long time!

Dilettante:I downloaded/printed off at work. Still took me a week to cut out and mount all the counters etc..

Well, Patrice, I was actually thinking primarily of the links to the original ordonnances… but all your pictures are "interesting" as well, honest!

The French, Bretons and Burgundians all relied on the warbow/longbow as their main missile weapon during the WOTR period and fielded archers by the thousand in battle. The crossbow was very much a secondary weapon and usually not found amoung the professional troops in France. (Some Franc-Archers did have crossbows though)
The only period sources that I have read which refer to the arms of the French troops sent to England during the WOTR refer to them as archers.

Do the cross bowmen in the Perry set have any use then? How about the pikemen in that set?

Crossbows and pikes saw plenty of use in Flemish, Burgundian and Swiss militaries.

As for WotR, there is some speculation that the German/Swiss mercenaries present in Stokes Field (1487) might have been armed with pikes. Maybe.

I'd go for a mix of both 'pike' and crossbow.

The evidence is quite slim so you can pretty much base things on the French Ordonnance of the time which is a nice mix. don't forget to throw a few fully harnessed men at arms too!

Darrell.

Just Add Water II Blog (Painting etc):
link
La Journee Blog (Hundred Years War):
link
Gewalthaufen Blog (Late 15th Cebtury Blog):
gewalthaufen.blogspot.co.uk