"What could the Chinese learn from signals int on our ships?" Topic

The search for flight MH370 continues. A number of western countries surface ships and subs have been involved in the search, as well as Chinese vessels (which, as I understand it, reported pings from the MH370 black box and drew foreign ships to the area).

What, if anything, could the Chinese learn by observing western military search vessels?

The main sigint effort will go into 'fingerprinting'; monitoring any given vessels individual electronic signature, which is made up of lots of tiny idiosyncratic giveaways with its radio, radar and sonar transmissions. That way any future Battle Group's composition can be calculated by checking through the records taken – all computerised and done in seconds. Also used to program delayed action mines so that they only detonate under specific high value targets.

A secondary objective will be to gauge the strength or weakness of RAN units by assessing their circuit discipline, voice procedure, emission drills and so on. This is particularly important in the 'transition to war' cold war type posturing and blocking short of opening fire that would presage any Chinese effort to influence Australian policy.

This would be achieved discretely and deniably by blockading or constricting or otherwise harassing our sea lanes of communication, thus raising maritime insurance costs, thus dampening the economy. A very useful strategy for the Chinese, subtle, and, to a Communist, quite ironic in making our capitalists the one who force Canberra to tow the line!

Very interesting. Thanks Sparker. Is there anything which can be done to frustrate the enemy? e.g. false "give away" emissions which are turned off in time of war.

I was told that American ships always operate with a handicap in joint exercises – e.g. a semi-loud repeater during ASW exercises, radars turned off, etc., so that when we go to China over a lack of eggrolls or whatever they've seen people at 3/4ths speed, not full. Is that not correct?

"I was told that American ships always operate with a handicap in joint exercises"

I remember a headline sometime ago where the other force in a joint exercise (may have been Sweden?) were able to run rings around the US Navy. If it is as you say, the US Navy must have been snickering all the way home – having deceived all and sundry.

Hopefully the enemy don't drop in to TMP.

I imagine they are supporting members.

:-)

I have heard that as soon as a plastic model company came out with a kit of the latest tank or jet, the Russians went out and bought a lot of them.
The Soviet embassy had a few subscriptions to Strategy and Tactics magazine for intel purposes also.
Both of the above may explain the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Russians or Chinese on TMP? I bet they are the reason behind our latest quasi meltdown!

We had a quasi meltdown?

With sufficient observation, you can ID specific ships by their EM emissions or passive sonar noise (bent shaft, bent screw blade, chain wrapped around the screw, all sorts of stuff). Just by seeing what radar/radio frequencies are emitted can ID a ship, at least to 'flight' level (ie, it's one of the 5 ships in this group of the class of 30), and sometimes down to the individual ship if there are unique differences.

The challenge is to hold a ship long enough to develop this information. According to published sources, that hasn't happened very often.

One thing that the Chinese could get an estimate on would be passive sonar sensitivity/capabilities, since search patterns are put together based on detection range. Though given the relatively low strength of the black box pingers and deep water, that may be showing less information to the Chinese than they'd want.

It also gave the Chinese an estimate of how quickly ships could reposition, as any Western sailor (and I'd assume Eastern sailors as well) will move heaven and earth for search and rescue ops. Max speed (all ahead flank, battle-short, cavitate, GET US THERE *NOW*) to the search zone, all sensors going, you name it. While sailors might want to be buried at sea, nobody wants to be LOST at sea.

> The Soviet embassy had a few subscriptions to Strategy and Tactics magazine for intel purposes also.

Well the Soviet Union and SPI had an economic meltdown for similar reasons…

As for rescue ops, certain ships just do not do that – they have smaller boats for the search and rescue work, or copters.

I thought it was standard practice for all armed forces of every country to not show the full potential of their equipment unless there is a really compelling reason to do so.

Well in the good old days when the USN and RN still operated Diesel Electric SSK submarines they had to have noisemakers turned on during exercises so that the rest of the exercise had half a chance of locating them. Not necessary with noisy SSNs of course, even the sonar teams on a Type 42 Air Defence destroyer can locate those!(Can't turn off the cooling pumps on the nuclear reactor – well you can, but only once!)

Regarding trying to overcome fingerprinting, yes, of course platforms regularly undergo EM analysis of all emitters to try to eliminate idiosyncracies. I imagine the effectiveness of this gradually wears off over time…

It also gave the Chinese an estimate of how quickly ships could reposition, as any Western sailor (and I'd assume Eastern sailors as well) will move heaven and earth for search and rescue ops. Max speed (all ahead flank, battle-short, cavitate, GET US THERE *NOW*) to the search zone, all sensors going, you name it.

Not sure that occured in this instance, as by the time the Malaysian authorities got around to involving the Aussies, pretty much all hope of rescuing survivors had faded…

Regarding our potential foes, and current friends, monitoring TMP for military and naval intelligence, as entertaining and informative as they may find us, I, and I'm sure others, have taken care to only repeat open source material. My pension is too valuable to me!

As for rescue ops, certain ships just do not do that – they have smaller boats for the search and rescue work, or copters.

You still need to get the big ship close enough to let the helos search. Helos don't have a wide combat radius.