"Many misconceptions on civil war uniforms" Topic

I have noticed in this thread already there has been many of the old myths coming up on uniforms. One for instance is the old one on Wheats Tigers. While the Battalion bore the name there was only one company of the zouaves in that battalion. Everyone wants to make the whole battalion based on the zouaves. Being a historian of Confederate Zouaves you are better off building both the 1st and 2nd Battalions of Coppens Zouaves and the Confederate Chassuers. Which combined with the 1st Battalion. Now if you wish to do a really off the wall unit then take the 2nd battalion and build a company of mounted zouaves for the western campaign. I have much more in my library and research papers on the Zouaves of the Confederates States if anyone wishes this.

Also stay away from painting a whole lot of butternut for the ANV!!!!!!!!

Can you explain a bit further re the ANV / butternut thing? I have always assumed 'butternut' and other colours slipped in where supply of cloth became one of necessity rather than official uniform issue. Mounted Zouaves sound interesting, but does anyone do these in 15mm. Are they a 'mounted infantry' unit rather than cavalry?

I have a reference in one of my books - sorry, I'm not at home, hard to check the title now - that many of the surviving uniform pieces that now look butternut were actually grey, but the poor dye deteriorated into a shade of butternut.

If you model Gettysburg armies, then a large percentage of the clothing worn there by the ANV was civilian clothes liberally taken from stores during the marching. There's a brilliant description of Early's division that I found during my research for my upcoming book on his expedition through York County prior to Gettysburg, and his men are wearling all kinds of civilian clothing, as well as a lot of blue pants taken from supplies captured at Winchester. The LA Tigers in particular wore civilian clothing - note several contemporary descriptions from Gettysburg residents (Sarah Broadhead in particular, as well as Michael Jacobs). NO significant vestiges of the popular Tigers uniform that many gaming figures depict!

A fair number of North Carolina troops had relatively fresh gray uniforms, and indeed, it has been written that these often turned brownish over time.

What are with all these references to food products?

If one company was wheat, was the opposite company 'frosted sugar'?

Butternut,,, I won't even speculate on what kind of food fetishes may have been involved.

"Butternut,,, I won't even speculate on what kind of food fetishes may have been involved."

The butternut is another common name for the white walnut, Juglans cineraria, a native species common throughout the eastern US. The husks on the ripened nuts, like those on the somewhat more common black walnut, Juglans nigra, decompose to yield a dark, slightly yellowish, brown pigment that was used in the 19th century as a dye. The nuts themselves are great in pies, cakes and cookies!

A dessert to dye for, if you will!

The butternut theroy has been a myth for many many years. Richmond depot keep a regular supply of clothing going out to the forces during all the campaigns. The mainstay of most uniforms by that time was call jean cloth. This was a unbleached thread of cotton going one way and a grey wool going the other. What this caused was the unbleached cloth to pick up various amounts of dirt and dust to give that impression. No with that said you will find various types of walnut dyed uniforms in the western theater of war. It was noted that just when part of the ANV arrived in the west how well dressed they where. Main depots for the ANV where found all along the Weldon railroad south of Petersburg to past Richmond. West to Clarksville aresenal and depot to Winchester depot. While it may be stated that Earlys men where in civies this was not the norm nor was it the norm in the Corps and divisions. The grey in some different shades was the mainstay of the confederate army. This would include the trousers also. Federal coats where taken into stock in Richmond and redyed to give them a grey color. Much reseach has been done on this issue by myself along with others like Les Jensen. Lee Wallace, Bob Denton and many fellows who manufacture the reprodcutions today. I have been lucky enough to do research on these items in the store rooms of the Richmond and National Army museum. Alot of the Dark Blue of the confederate troops have also oxidized over the years giving the impression that uniforms of the company of tigers where brown and not blue as they should have been. What I have in research on Confederate uniforms is to much to write here on but whatever I can do to help people out let me know.
Now on the zouaves there was only one regiment that was formed and taken into confederate service as regulars. That was the 1st Battalion of which Gaston Coppens commanded at first. Coppens was not well liked and was transfered to a Florida regiment and was killed at Sharpsburg. (Grave is unknown. We have been searching for the past 10 years trying to find where he is buried) It was passed to his brother Alfred and then on to De Bordenauve, who is buired here in Franklin Va. The unit was disbanded on Janurary 19th of 1865 under goverment orders. After sharpsburg the regiment was issued jean cloth type II Richmond depot jackets and trousers. There is a famous picture of a Confederate Marine by the name of Rainey. He served as Sgt Major of the 1st and there is a picture of him in the Library of Congress in the new issued type II jacket before he left and went to the Marines. I have compiled a large folder of this unit over the past 15 years and still working on it. The museum in New Orleans has several orginial pictures of the Zouaves when stationed at Pensecola Fla. including the drummer boy.

A common problem with trying to identify confederate uniforms is that most surviving examples of that we would call butternut started off their life as grey. When cotton/wool jean is dyed with natural dyes such as sumac, the original grey color fades badly in sunlight to a brownish tan color (aka 'butternut'). This fading happens very quickly, in maybe a month of exposure to sunlight.

If you are skeptical, you can actually test this yourself. There are some really dedicated reenactors who have researched the original dye recipes and using period kettles, have reproduced butternut. You can buy a swatch of fabric from them (if you don't want to buy a uniform item), put it out in the sun, and watch it change colors over time. If anyone has more interest in this subject, I can provide links to traders in such cloth. They are an amazing source of information on 19th century clothing in general and civil war uniforms in particular.

Probably the easiest way to reflect this on the table-top for is to drybrush a lighter, browner shade of grey on your figures, leaving the underarms and such darker (as would occur naturally).

The color you paint your rebs depends on theater, year, state (the NC troops received new uniforms more frequently than the rest), period of campaign, etc. Don't rule out 'butternut' for the ANV. Richmond Depot contract uniforms were made from jean made from natural dyes. After about a month of use, they would start to change colors like the rest. However, the wool uniforms made in England and Ireland were made from commercial dyes, and they do not fade from their dark grey colors (surviving Tait contract jackets are still grey after nearly 150 years).

74th, that's nothing.

The Queens York Rangers, a Canadian regiment that started in New York, wanted to make up sets of mess kit. It is based on their original clothing from the Rev War days.

They took an original jacket as a basis without taking into consideration some two hundred years of sun bleaching and natural fading. The result is their mess kit is 'pool table' green with purple trim. Every time we get together with them we ask if we can borrow a jacket to lay on the floor for a quick game of billiards.

Both scottmingus and 74EFS Intel mention that NC troops received new uniforms mor often than most Confederate troops. I suspect the reason for that is the huge number of textile plants in NC (until recently, at least). Is my suspicion confirmed by historical accounts?

Not so much as that North Carolina was very stingy with the uniforms. In the beginning of the war there was a system that allowed for each state to supply it's own troops and then get reembursed for this by the central goverment. (short synopsis) By the summer of 62 this was abandonded and Richmond became the central depot for uniforms. Items where cut out there and sent out in packets to the local seamtress's and sewn together. Officers clothing could be either custom made or bought from central stores. Everyone got on board except NC. Now they did draw off of the central for the troops but they also keep in stores many uniforms. At one time in 63 and 64 returns show that NC had enough uniforms to supply the whole of the ANV. Also in the NC stores was a very large shipment of uniforms from Tait and Co in Ireland that was destined for central supplies but was taken over by NC and put in thier stores when the ship landed in Wilmington. These are the Peter Tait jackets seen on confederates in the trenchs around Petersburg.
The central goverment contracted with various mills around the east to make cloth for them. Some buttons came from NYC believe it or not until the fall of 62 at which time the Federal Goverment clamped down on the makeing of items for a rebeling part of the country. There was alot of stuff going on with uniforms at that time such as the blackmarket trade for cotton with the north for some medical supplies.

czarsguard is right on the money about Gov Vance and the NC clothing issue system.

I warn anyone who goes down the path of serious study in Civil War uniforms, that the more you learn about it, the less enjoyment you'll get out of wargaming. You'll find yourself counting buttons on shell jackets to determine what pattern the sculptur intended and you'll fuss over the proper shape of a Type I or Type II Federal bummers cap (not to be confused with a kepi). You'll realize that there are no truly accurate wargame figures out there and it is impossible to paint a 'generic' CSA unit as there was no such thing.

But, man, the research is addictive, and there are some phenomenal resources out there once you start digging for them. I can quit at any time...I can quit at any time...I can quit at any time...

You got it Brother!!!! I have been researching both Civil
War and AWI uniforms for years. The one thing that I have learned is never say never.

As for the sculpts you are right. Most sculpters do not really do the homework when it comes to figures. A good example of this is the OLD GLORY 25mm Iron Brigade. I was so disapointed in mine that I got rid of them. I am one of those stitch nazis and when I looked at the figure and found the following I said what the heck was this sculptor thinking when he sold OG on this figure. One there is none of the troops with legging that the IB was known for. Two they had a Mass. haversack instead of the standard issue. No bayonet scabbards. To much brass and such on the hats and to top it off they had the hard pack instead of the Western single bag or the double knapsack they arrived with. I dont blame anyone but the sculptor for claiming this to be an Iron Brigade figure. IMHO

You got it Brother!!!! I have been researching both Civil
War and AWI uniforms for years. The one thing that I have learned is never say never.

As for the sculpts you are right. Most sculpters do not really do the homework when it comes to figures. A good example of this is the OLD GLORY 25mm Iron Brigade. I was so disapointed in mine that I got rid of them. I am one of those stitch nazis and when I looked at the figure and found the following I said what the heck was this sculptor thinking when he sold OG on this figure. One there is none of the troops with legging that the IB was known for. Two they had a Mass. haversack instead of the standard issue. No bayonet scabbards. To much brass and such on the hats and to top it off they had the hard pack instead of the Western single bag or the double knapsack they arrived with. I dont blame anyone but the sculptor for claiming this to be an Iron Brigade figure. IMHO

One source on Early's men (Francis Gall, US Sanitary Commission; as quoted in local York newspapers as well as in Bates)...

"Physically," he says, "the men looked about equal to the generality of our own troops, and there were fewer boys among them. Their dress was a wretched mixture of all cuts and colors. There was not the slightest attempt at uniformity in this respect. Every man seemed to have put on whatever he could get hold of, without regard to shape or color. I noticed a pretty large sprinkling of blue pants among them, some of those, doubtless, that were left by Milroy at Winchester. Their shoes, as a general thing, were poor; some of the men were entirely barefooted. Their equipments were light, as compared with those of our men. They consisted of a thin woollen blanket, coiled up and slung from the shoulder in the form of a sash, a haversack swung from the opposite shoulder, and a cartridge-box. The whole cannot weigh more than twelve or fourteen pounds. Is it strange, then, that with such light loads, they should be able to make longer and more rapid marches than our men? The marching of the men was irregular and careless, their arms were rusty and ill kept. Their whole appearance was greatly inferior to that of our soldiers

You got it Brother!!!! I have been researching both Civil
War and AWI uniforms for years. The one thing that I have learned is never say never.

As for the sculpts you are right. Most sculpters do not really do the homework when it comes to figures. A good example of this is the OLD GLORY 25mm Iron Brigade. I was so disapointed in mine that I got rid of them. I am one of those stitch nazis and when I looked at the figure and found the following I said what the heck was this sculptor thinking when he sold OG on this figure. One there is none of the troops with legging that the IB was known for. Two they had a Mass. haversack instead of the standard issue. No bayonet scabbards. To much brass and such on the hats and to top it off they had the hard pack instead of the Western single bag or the double knapsack they arrived with. I dont blame anyone but the sculptor for claiming this to be an Iron Brigade figure. IMHO

Very interesting. Thanks for the information, guys. Sounds like "piracy" didn't completely die out in NC with Blackbeard. (Speaking as a North Carolinian . . .)

I've seen reference to a "educated guess" that would put (about) 50% CSA troops in some version of dark gray, 25% in the brownish "butternut" and 25% in the lighter gray "jean cloth." This ratio was presented as a "rule of thumb" when painting CSA units from 1862 and after. How close is this (generally)?

I should note I intend on gaming in 6mm, so counting buttons will not be an issue. I am however interested in presenting a viable image of the CSA in action. I don't want a gray wall nor do I want a butternut wall. Does this mix seem appropriate?

Those of you who have an interest in uniforms manufactured by the Confederate Central Government might enjoy reading Jensen's article on C. S. uniform jackets which was originally published in "Military Collector and Historian" the journal of the Company of Military Historians, a few years back. It is located online here:

link

Also, a wonderful article on the composite household battalion sent to North America during the AWI.

I would encourage folks to look over the site and consider membership in the company. The research which is published is simply amazing. If you are familiar with the books which cover Don Trioni's collection and art, it's this publication that those folks originally worked within. Not all the articles would be of use, but sometimes there is a real gem. For example, a recent edition had a great article on Hessian flags of the AWI.

I would somewhat disagree about all sculptors not doing their homework. The figures produced by the Foundry for their ACW range are quite good IMO. The jackets and the styles of hats on the different C. S. infantry figures were definitely influenced by the Time-Life "Echoes of Glory" books. An example of the detail is the jacket elbows. You will note that they are wider, almost a slight elongated "d" in style. A feature of 19th Century tailoring, and a feature noted on extant examples of C. S. manufactured clothing.

The Perry Brothers certainly have a knack for this detail, no doubt. The AWI range that they are producing encompasses some of the most recent up to date research on uniforms of that period.

Another source of Civil War uniform info would be a search on the Authentic Campaigner web site's forum @ authentic-campaigner.com. This reenactor site has some very knowledgeable folks who post information found nowhere else on the web.

Just a personal note. First read Jensen's article when it was published. Had just finished my late War Confederate brigade in brown or drab colored clothing. Then find out that the Brits were sending wonderful blue gray cloth uniforms, and material by the bolt in large amounts through the blockade and that late War C. S. infantry probably looked more uniform then they did in 1862! Neat stuff, hope some of you are able to find a use for it.

An old Mudsill gamer

Okay I have to agree with you that not ALL sculptors dont do thier homework. You are right in that area. But there are a boat load that are in that catagory. The Perrys are an example of doing it right. As an old authenic campaigner from reenacting I can attest to what has been said by Mudsill. I have known Les Jensen for many years and his articles are still right on.

I went back last night and pulled through all of my research from years ago and found that NC did indeed have a warehouse in Richmond to house uniforms. A for instance is that the 4th NC ordered 2000 uniforms complete from head to toe in late 62. The regiment had only 500 men. The rest where more than likely sent to the drop off point in Richmond.

The bolts that mudsill is speaking of would be the same color as of the Peter Tait jackets. These where also some of the goods that NC kept that I posted on. If anyone wishes indepth information I will share with you the same items that I have on hand from previous research. You can contact me at

czarsguard@yahoo.com

jdarnold,
The Butternut deal is a bit high I should think except maybe in the western theater. I do not know to much on that area of operation to be honest. Though working in this field for 30 years I should have done so. Maybe I will do so now.

A QM report for one quarter of 63 showed Richmond depot producing in the vicintiy of 37,000 jackets and 15,000 pairs of trousers. Atlanta depot (which did send clothing to the ANV stores) Produced around the same amount. This at a time when the ANV was at around 60,000 strong to include support units. Now with that in mind one will find that there would be a variation in grey colors of uniforms. When you check reports coming out from the detailed reports at the National Archives you will find that the OM's at regimental level ordered by company. So that A would need 10 sets of clothing, D would need 25 sets, E would need 30 jackets and 10 trousers. This would cause a mix of colors in the company at best.

Another authentic here. Howdy Pards.

For those of you on the outside, pursue the links that these folks are passing you. The Authentic Campaigner website should be your first stop. Just be sure to allow a lot of time, as it's fascinating.

Regardless of how you view reenacting, the research done by the authentic arm of the hobby is second to none. It wasn't a PhD that 're-discovered' how the Confederates made butternut, it was the reenactor community (Charlie Childs, Ben Tart, et al). You don't need to share their fanaticism for authenticity to benefit from their incredible research and documentation.

Speaking as a "Westerner" I can tell you that alot of issue clothing was captured Federal materials re - dyed and the "jean" materials. I am also aware of a summer issue of white canvas pants to an Alabama and Mississippi regement in 63. There is a letter in a friends possesion that talks about the Alabamians recieving them first and taking alot of ribbing for looking like "sailors". When the Mississippi boys were issued thiers not alot of ribbing took place as there was a fear of sorts in the Corps that everyone would soon look like "sailors". Apparently it was an experiment of sorts because no other references were made about additional issues of the trousers.

My Ben Tart shell is still more or less gray after 10 years or more of hard wear. The cuffs are shot and there is a big burn hole in the back but I still wear it sometimes when its cool out even though I havent done the reenactor thing in quite awhile. Jean doesnt seem to wear as well as pure wool, most of my jean stuff lasted no where near as long, whether Charlie's or Ben's or that guy in Red Lion PA. Pants in particular wore out fast. Of course I seldom washed em, but the same could be said for most of the boys on campaign ;)

Gents, thanks for a very interesting thread. I've probably got too many "non-grey" figures in my CS division, though the fact it's Early's at Gettysburg may mean it's less accurate it could be.

A question about hats, though. A lot of my figures are wearing hats rather than kepis (probably 65%). I've done some in grey or black, but the majority in various shades of pale browns and creams. Assuming most of these were made of felt, and felt doesn't hold modern dye long before fading (going more brown- my slouch hats show a distinct fade line where the puggaree is), I can only assume that a lot of the CW hats would have been faded, due to the lower quality of dye available in the 1860's.

What colours would have been popular when the hats were new, though? Tan, Brown, dark colours or light?

Cheers.

Dal.

From all of my research on hats Dal brown of a different colors where the onew worn. Also the ribbon on the edge of the hat and the band around the crown was mostly of a color close to the hat. Some though had darker colors but not as much as the lighter ones. On my 40 mmm figures I use a second color for the hat trim but on the 25mm and less I do not. Exception is when I go with a darker trim.

As for fading that can be expected even in todays market. We use color fast dyes but they will fade over a period of time. One of my favorite bee hives went from med brown to light in about two years of campaigning.

Peter

From all of my research on hats Dal brown of a different colors where the onew worn. Also the ribbon on the edge of the hat and the band around the crown was mostly of a color close to the hat. Some though had darker colors but not as much as the lighter ones. On my 40 mmm figures I use a second color for the hat trim but on the 25mm and less I do not. Exception is when I go with a darker trim.

As for fading that can be expected even in todays market. We use color fast dyes but they will fade over a period of time. One of my favorite bee hives went from med brown to light in about two years of campaigning.

Peter

Whoops!!!! sorry gang!!

G'day, Peter.

Thanks for the info, mate. It sounds as if I haven't gone too far wrong, then.

Cheers.

Dal.

Anytime Pard. Heres my e-mail if you need anything else.

peter@dutchpond.com

G'day, Peter.

Sorry for the delay in replying, but I've been travelling about for work reasons. Thanks, mate. I've added your addy to my list, as a future reference. Eventually I'll be doing more figures (another division of Rebs and Yanks, JRII style) and will draw on your expertise.

Cheers.

Dal.

I have BSc in textile colouration, and used to be a dyer in one of europes largest mills, so while no expert on ACW can offer a textile manufacturer's point of view.

Cotton fabric straight off a loom before any finishing (bleaching, dyeing, printing et cetera)is a brownish / creamish shade, with wool being even further from white. A lot like what is referred to as butternut. Interestingly (perhaps) this is reffered to as "grey cloth", but this doesn't actually refer to the colour but "greigh" which I believe is flemish for "loom-state". So you could have butternut coloured grey cloth. The mind boggles.

Several centuries after the acw, dyers still struggle to reproduce shades consistently. Differences in the fabric (substrate), water quality, water temperature, relative humidity and temp of the atmosphere, variations in the dyestuff or any of the dozens of chemicals that go into a dyeing liquor will all have an effect on the finished shade. Knowing how much trouble we had in the 20th century (haven't done this for a few years) I can imagine 19th century dyeings to be of an even less uniform standard.

Once the dye is actually applied to the fabric, fading will occur. This fading is also affected by many factors, including the original substrate, the dyestuff used, the humidity of the atmosphere the garment is worn in.

So I can imagine a force clad in grey / butternut would have just about any shade imaginable, due to differences in original dyed shade and differences in light / wear fastness.