"If you were starting 15mm Napoleonics today which figs?" Topic

AB and my own sculpts.

AB

ThePeninsularWarin15mm,

Such as? Do not forget that Eureka's 18mm range exists to complete anything that was not there.

I believe there was a recent thread talking about how AB does not offer Russian generals that are accurate for the entire period.

They also don't offer much in the way of equipment (for those who care about that). I've spoken with the sculptor who is doing artillery and equipment for Blue Moon and they are in fact going to offer every wagon, cart, caisson, etc… for each nationality.

These are corner examples but the AB line is far from complete. Blue Moon is not either but they're consistent message backed up by consistent releases does speak well for them. It is not by any means a breakneck pace but it is consistent.

I would not argue Blue Moon is the least expensive available, even if you buy the discount card, the least expensive available is buying figures second-hand, that likely always will be. I have routinely bought OG15s at rates of 5-20’ per figure shipped. But among commercial offerings Blue Moon (with the discount card) is very, very competitive. Also one must consider that AB are just under twice as expensive (before the discount card or shipping are factored in).

How much that matters depends on who is shopping. My collection is thousands of figures so for me price matters a lot. If someone were going to do skirmish games – I imagine price would matter far less.

Cheers,

The Bandit

If you're in the US, order your ABs (and Eureka) from eurekaminusa.com . Saves you from getting nuked by Aussie Post's shipping charges.

If I was starting again, I would probably do 10mm.

But I'm committed to 15mm. I start with ABs, but they are a bit pricey and some ranges and figures I don't particularly like. I'm not keen on their French line infantry (I prefer gaiters to trousers) or their French artillery models (and some crews). Their Bavarians are a bit big.

I have used Old Glory successfully to provide a lower cost backbone. Their French line infantry were a bit unsatisfactory though. Their Prussians were very much up to the job (but not the artillery or hussars).

I am going to try Blue Moon next.

So not to be called a AB hater or anything I would just like to say YES they are the best figs to date, but there is gaps and tiny things like they break very easy.

I have in my personal collection ….. at the very least 20-25,000 AB and still doing my inventory as I speak.

And my service has painted I'm guessing in the last 7-8 years close to 50 – 60,000 AB's for collectors … so that should say something about how people feel and AB Figs

And Nic & Rob are top notch guys to deal with on all levels

Factors – Money – Your Painting Skills – What Armies you are going to paint

should all be factors in planning and making a choice in your plans

My Napoleonic collection is composed of
AB
Campaign Games Miniatures
Xan
Old Glory artiiery,

and a few each from Warmodelling, Alain Touller, Magister Militarum (former Chariot figures).

Steve J

I have only Old Glory, but for durability I would go with Blue Moon if starting over/out.

10mm Pendraken.

Blue Moon, for quality compared with cost.

AB!
But Blue moon are worth considering as are Xan.

I've often thought about this. Just because I keep finding my old Battle Honours 15mm Marines that I bought 18 years ago I think and never painted.

I think I'd opt for Minifigs. I don't know lads. I think I'd enjoy the retro look.

AB without any doubt.

The sculpting and casting quality is superb. They are fabulous to paint and interestingly when you look around the net they consistently seem to inspire some outstanding painting.

Napoleonics take ages to paint and you don't have to buy them all at once. I reason that the biggest commitment you'll make is your painting time so you may as well have the whatever you consider to be the best, whatever the cost.

I am biased towards AB but these days I can't see any point in painting anything that I don't consider to be the best. (Reckon I'm getting old!)

I suggest you buy a few from each recommendation here, paint them and then make a decision.

I enjoy painting AB figures. Some of the nations have gaps like mounted Russian jδger. Sho, khurasan and xan look to be good potential additions. Can't beat AB horses.

If cost is a factor old glory are great. Don't know blue moon figures to comment.
Happy hunting!

AB for me! Though Old Glory give some great varieties. But I still have affection for my original Essex who have fought up hills though woods and over bridges for me under all manner of rules.

AB, but a close second comes Campaign Games.

I started out with BH, brought a few AB along the way. Have several OG units but the bulk now are CGM.

There is just something about them, i just find them so much easier to paint.

But CGM only does mostly 1815 figs (or at least 1813 onwards for Prussian etc)

"But CGM only does mostly 1815 figs (or at least 1813 onwards for Prussian etc)"

Actually, that isn't strictly true anymore – CGM have started to do other periods of the Napoleonic Wars too – so their Austrian range includes infantry figures wearing wearing both helmet and shako. I'm not too keen on the sculpts but they look perfectly serviceable and better than many other makers – their Austrian artillery figures and guns look rather nice and well worth further investigation.

Although I'm a firm AB fanboy I'd recommend BM's guns – their French artillery pieces are very nice indeed. But BM's figure sculpting can't compare to AB's (I'm with Timmo UK – why spend your time painting anything less than the best) – although some of their 1806 Prussians look like they might be okay. So I'll be fielding BM guns with AB crews.

why spend your time painting anything less than the best

By this logic we should all be living in multi-million dollar houses, driving cars that cost over $100,000 USD and spending all of our time on leisure activities – because why spend your life working when you could be having fun?

Just say'n…

I have a large Napoleonic collection, if I were to presume the money I spent to-date was the budget available to me for Napoleonics, I could have what I have or I could have an absolutely minuscule number of AB figures.

Also, "best" is subjective. AB are very, very nice figures, however, the people I play with would snap them in two by accident. The decision to make these items goes hand-in-hand with their exceptional proportionality. I will immediately accept AB figures are likely the most proportionally correct available, but it means that the fragile parts are the size they are and therefore easily broken. Of those I've bought 2nd hand (unpainted) the overwhelming majority have arrived carefully packed yet still damaged due to their inherent fragility (bayonets, cavalry sabers, musket barrels on some, etc…).

A curious thing about AB is that the line has experienced a fair amount of scale creep, for instance compare 1807 era Russian infantry across the line and you'll find some that are visibly short compared to others. Blue Moon has managed (to-date) to avoid this, as have many other lines.

Lastly, part of one's feelings about "the best" are going to vary based on their feelings towards how much uniformity they want. Painting AB I have felt like I am painting the same figure over and over (because I am) vs Blue Moon where there are minor differences among a lot of figures all in the same general pose. I also lean towards more animated, like men in a Keith Rocco painting whereas AB tend towards very high uniformity so I feel like I'm painting wooden men.

One must look for balance and what works best for them.

Cheers,

The Bandit

Bandit – I don't disagree in the slightest – but I'm a slow painter and actually find the clean sculpting of AB easier to deal with than some of the rougher sculpts from their competitors. And I've had the odd bayonet break on AB but I'm not so clumsy I break them a lot. And I'm fortunate here in the UK because Ian Marsh packages the figures beautifully for shipment so there is little damage on arrival.

But I do find your comment re BM surprising ".. based on their feelings towards how much uniformity they want. Painting AB I have felt like I am painting the same figure over and over (because I am) vs Blue Moon where there are minor differences among a lot of figures all in the same general pose. I also lean towards more animated, like men in a Keith Rocco painting whereas AB tend towards very high uniformity so I feel like I'm painting wooden men."

Now I agree that the AB guys in march attack poses aren't highly animated – but there are considerable minor variations between march attack figures (I count at least five variants within the IF01 code – French fusiliers, march attack, and the same again within the IF02 code, similar figures wearing covered shako) – the BM equivalents only have three poses repeated ten times each within a pack of thirty.

So I really don't see that your comment re variants within BM figures of the same general pose holds water – I'd suggest this is a case where your subjective feelings about the figures have clouded the reality.

And with regards to BM animation – I'm all for that except that when I purchased the BM British Peninsula figures in march attack they all had their right arms held out in various poses rather than at their side as regulations prescribed. This wouldn't have been a problem except that the undercut caused by this couldn't be handled by the moulding process and every figure had rough metal between the figures arm and body. When it is a choice between animation or a clean casting, I'd prefer the clean casting.

Your point re scale creep is very true – the figures were sculpted over a period of years by AB, and certainly if you compare AB and BH there can be some quite significant differences between the figures (and others look pretty similar).

On the other hand, my favourite OG Napoleonic figure is a rather portly French NCO – unfortunately he is standing around rather than being in a "useful" position, otherwise I'd be fitting him in to any French unit I field!

Malc

Malc,

Now I agree that the AB guys in march attack poses aren't highly animated – but there are considerable minor variations between march attack figures (I count at least five variants within the IF01 code – French fusiliers, march attack, and the same again within the IF02 code, similar figures wearing covered shako)…

A couple clarifications on this:

Your feelings about AB on this are probably correct, I believe this varies by "code". For instance among early war Prussian infantry the ABs of a given code don't vary that much, neither do early war Prussian dragoons, maybe I haven't looked close enough at my AB French Carabiniers or Cuirassiers (they are yet to be painted) but I didn't think they had that much variation either – as you point out, it seems other chunks of the product line offer more unique figures, so it varies. Fair enough.

… – the BM equivalents only have three poses repeated ten times each within a pack of thirty.

Actually that is not quite accurate, there are ~3 poses repeated ten times within 30 but that does not mean there are 10 "sets" of figures as there are variations within the poses of equipment and the like. At some point Russ or another guy from OG posted how many "unique" castings there were from each group, eleven sticks in my head but I could be way off. Many of the variances are quite minor: X guy's bag is different, Y guy has a bottle rather than a canteen, etc. So I *believe* there are more than three unique figures per general pose.

And with regards to BM animation – I'm all for that except

Interesting. I don't have any British troops from them so I can't speak to that, I have a *ton* of early war Prussians and fair number of mid-war French and Austrians… all those are pretty happy sculpts.

On the other hand, my favourite OG Napoleonic figure is a rather portly French NCO – unfortunately he is standing around rather than being in a "useful" position, otherwise I'd be fitting him in to any French unit I field!

The guy sorta lent back with his shako tipped funny? He's awesome. I use "reformation area" markers which symbolize the rear area of a division and are generally populated by a wagon, wounded, NCOs, etc…

We're very fortunate in the land of 15mm that the offerings are so diverse and yet largely compatible (if not within a unit, definitely within a table).

Cheers,

The Bandit

Black Hat
AB
War Modelling
Blue Moon
Old Glory

and a few from Essex/Museum/Lancashire etc

But CGM only does mostly 1815 figs (or at least 1813 onwards for Prussian etc)

Well that is handy, being the period I like to paint.

I don't understand stories about fragile AB figures and broken parts. I move my AB figure bases on table, grabbing by bayonets and all bayonets still intact.

One of the reasons I've mostly have AB's, is that not only most of my previous Armies in Napoleonics were 25/28mm. I also have painted many large size Napoleonics in 75mm, 100mm, and 120mm. So besides being a gamer, I'm also a large scale figure painter, so that is why I chose AB's.

Bandit,
The early Prussian Musketeers by AB in March Attack have 7 different poses, and that's not including the 3 or 4 wounded figures that you can add to that group.

Russ knows that he will get plenty of my money later on when he gets more of his equipement range out there and has
his commanders for early Prussians, Russians, and French completed.

John

The early Prussian Musketeers by AB in March Attack have 7 different poses, and that's not including the 3 or 4 wounded figures that you can add to that group.

Interesting… I'll have to look closer, thanks for the correction.

Russ knows that he will get plenty of my money later on when he gets more of his equipement range out there and has his commanders for early Prussians, Russians, and French completed.

That is also my next planned purchase from them.

Cheers,

The Bandit

"Actually that is not quite accurate, there are ~3 poses repeated ten times within 30 but that does not mean there are 10 "sets" of figures as there are variations within the poses of equipment and the like. At some point Russ or another guy from OG posted how many "unique" castings there were from each group, eleven sticks in my head but I could be way off. Many of the variances are quite minor: X guy's bag is different, Y guy has a bottle rather than a canteen, etc. So I *believe* there are more than three unique figures per general pose."

That's odd because I mentioned the issue of lack of variation within packs on another thread soon after I first bought my "sample" packs of BM figures and Russ rather gruffly replied that there were no further plans to add more than the the three figures per pack for rank and file. Although to be fair he was being asked by others to provide something similar to the ACW packs on that thread. I'll need to look again and see if I can see any differences.

The early Prussians look pretty good from the photos on the BM website – I've just painted up most of an AB 1806 Prussian battalion as Hesse Darmstadt troops and rather enjoyed it – although I take your point about the limited variants there, I suspect that differences are so small (tent pegs and axes etc) that it is easy to feel like they are all the same.

On the other hand the AB Spanish Line Infantry in bicornes have at least eight significantly different figures within the march attack code.

"The guy sorta lent back with his shako tipped funny? He's awesome."

That is the fellow – I totally agree – if he was marching I'd slot him into any unit I could!

Do you have any pictures of your Prussians?

@Sho Boki – this is a common criticism. In my experience it tends to affect a few models (one of the 1806 Prussian poses I did recently needed a drop of superglue to strengthen it in every case) and that has tarred the whole range. Most of my broken muskets have occurred when I've dropped the figures while painting them.

Malc

If quality and price is a consideration, then I would go with Battle Honors. Good sculpts,and I get mine from Warwab. They always have a 20% discont on BH Napoleonic figures. A bag/pack of 48 infantry only costs $16.00 USD. That's .34 cents a figure. And they were design by the same guy who design AB figures.

I picked up a couple of army packs from Museum miniatures during their
January sale a couple of years ago. Good figures and a fairly wide variety of troops, they paint up great. Other good ranges include Blue Moon, AB, and Xan.

Bob

AB by far, and if you want to mix it up you have to stay with Blue Moon, Xan and other larger 15/18mm.

I have about 8-10,000 ABs in my collection.

Quite simple really. As much as I like my old Heritage, Naismith and Minifigs I would choose 'new and improved 15mm' sized figures. Nowadays army expansion is limited to Naismith. Would be nice to have the freedom of buying some of the really nice sculpts I see previewed on here. ( Yes I know the argument about in reality people are different heights and builds, but old 15mm is very different to new, and when you have approx 5000 small 15mm figures, newer 15mm figures stand out like a sore thumb).

For me it's a story of frequently renewed hope and so far consistent disappointment with all the other ranges judged against AB. Whenever they come out I buy some, paint em, play with em. But they niggle me because they don't look as good as AB and I always feel I've slightly wasted my time and money, and slightly devalued my collection.

Some spirited rearguard actions for other makers above but if we are looking for figures who actually look like real human beings, moving the way that real human beings do- AB are well ahead of all the rest the competition.

For a tiny example, just take a look at the very youthful faces of the French Fusiliers and compare them to the more experienced looking elite company men. If you collected 54-75mm figurines you'd hardly get better.

Xan look good and I intend to buy some, Warmodelling have some good figures but frequent casting problems in my experience, Blue Moon are OK too, with some nice detail but although they look quite good in pictures are often awkwardly posed for real. All the CGMs I've bought so far appear to have been based on dollies from an as yet unreleased range of planet of the apes figures. Sho Boki's figures are developing really well before our eyes on the forum however.

AB really pull away from the rest of the field (as it were) as far as horses go however. Barton studied equine anatomy at post graduate level and it definitely shows against other makers/designers. Even the best of the rest look in comparison to AB like fairground carousel horses or bullseye from Toy story (you know who you are….).

As I say, some spirited arguments for others. But, setting the cost of the figures in the context of the time and expense of the whole wargaming enterprise (esp any painting costs), I can't really understand why, if AB do a code, you would buy anything else.

There was 116 1/2 battalions in the Russian First Army at Borodino. Just saying.

As I say, some spirited arguments for others. But, setting the cost of the figures in the context of the time and expense of the whole wargaming enterprise (esp any painting costs), I can't really understand why, if AB do a code, you would buy anything else.

Because…

There was 116 1/2 battalions in the Russian First Army at Borodino. Just saying.

I have about… 15-17,000 Napoleonics. I paid maybe something like ~$3,000 for those figures, total, unpainted cost, to-date.

Had those *only* been AB infantry, they'd cost me ~$11,000-12,000, of course they are not only infantry, they are appropriate portions of artillery and cavalry as well plus wagons and limbers. That'd raise the median cost substantially and I have a hard time believing my out-of-pocket wouldn't have been in excess of $12,000 USD…

I've bought most of mine secondhand (all unpainted) and so you can say, "well, you're comparing used prices to retail and that is unfair," sure – except that AB hardly show up on the used market, to the point that I could not have bought the bulk of my figures that way, I'd *have* to buy them retail. Thus, it is a question of available market offerings.

I realize that you say, "I like painting X and the time to paint is part of the hobby and compared to my time the money is not a big deal." That's not an invalid way to feel I suppose, but I couldn't do the hobby as I want to if it was gonna cost me what you tell me you're willing to pay.

If I were going to replicate what I have using AB, I simply couldn't, it isn't a want or don't want, it would not be an option. Thus, by telling people, "why would you buy anything else," it is kinda almost a 'let them eat cake' statement. I didn't have $15,000 USD to spend on AB figures to accumulate the collection I have but I was able to achieve the collection I wanted and it cost me 1/5 of that.

Cheers,

The Bandit

This arguing background is similar to "best figures for quality painting versus best figures for quantity painting".
AB figures are for quality painting and for quality collection. Therefore, as Bandit rightfully remark – "AB hardly show up on the used market". Nobody don't want to leave his quality collection.

There are one controversial basic rule in wargaming.. we need many many figures for small battles and comparably only few figures for big battles.
So, as I may see.. big, inexpensive and quickpainted collections are mainly used for relatively small battles, representing 1:1 to 1:60 figure:men scale and must display distant visual masses on big tables.
Inversely, small and quality painted collections are used for 1:100 to 1:400 battles on small tables with close look, for skirmish and expositions.
And there are some big and quality painted collections too.. they are capable for everything.

I slowly collect my armies for Wagram, Waterloo and Borodino.
After post from 14Bore I did little math and may say, that for full Borodino (on brigade level commanding and regimental level fighting and with full organizational structures) I need at least:
Generals – Russian 58; French 51
Troopers – Russian 408; French 306
Horses – Russian 105; French 100
Guns – Russian 39; French 27.
Total cost of them for AB figures today – 840 GBP or 913 USD.

Bandit, you probably not old enough to remember being able to get AB's back in the early 90's for $0.40 USD per figure here in the states, which is when allot of us older guys purchased most of our collections. I probably bought 6,000 to 7,000 figures back then. In the last couple of years I have probably only purchased another $1,500 USD worth of figures to fill out some of the units,and purchase the rest of my limbers and caisons.

So you still might see some unpainted AB figures show up on the secondary markets in the next few years. When ever I've posted selling off some unpainted AB's, as I'm strictly staying with the 1805-07 time frame, they have gone pretty fast.

Likewise though I sold off 3,000 unpainted 15mm 2nd generation Minifigs in the matter of just a couple of weeks also.

John

Warrior – price and price.

Therefore, as Bandit rightfully remark – "AB hardly show up on the used market". Nobody don't want to leave his quality collection.

I would also say that due to:

1) higher cost
2) ala carte availability

Collectors buy *closer* to what they need of AB and less "extra".

I bought the bulk of my Napoleonic collection still new in package from various different gentlemen who were getting out of the hobby and never finished the huge projects they bought, just in the last couple of years at a cost of between 5-10’ a figure shipped (including cavalry and artillery).

Bandit, you probably not old enough to remember being able to get AB's back in the early 90's for $0.40 USD USD per figure here in the states, which is when allot of us older guys purchased most of our collections.

I am, and I do, though I did not get into Napoleonics until after 2000. It isn't that ABs don't show up on the used market, but they do so in such lower quantity and regularity that trying to obtain a collection of thousands does not seem practical on the secondhand market, therefore it drives you to buying retail. Regardless of that, the secondhand price of AB tends to be the bulk retail price of other brands (OG15s and Blue Moon)…

My point comes down to this:

Saying that everyone should buy AB because they are the best regardless of the premium price ignores the legitimate issue of cost.

If someone were working on a smaller project as Sho Boki outlines, doing a major battle but only with a relatively small number of figures, or for a really strong example – anyone playing skirmish – then the cost problem is mitigated, perhaps largely mitigated.

But if someone is working on a huge project involving thousands of figures or perhaps over 10,000 figures, it really is a legitimate market pressure.

As more and more of us age and more and more of us drop out of the hobby either due to changing priorities or our ultimately impending retirement, a lot more figures are going to hit the secondhand market, largely unpainted and untouched. So this theme will continue. Most of those won't be AB because there are simply more non-AB figures in private collections than there are AB figures.

My conclusion is that if you want a huge collection you'll need to consider if it is practical for your budget.

Cheers,

The Bandit

excellent posting by seneffe