John the OFM | 18 May 2014 10:20 a.m. PST |
Following on the Vietnamese riots against China thread
I have read that one of Roosevelt's war aims was to put an end to European colonial empires. Now, this may have been just a leftie rag I was reading, but bear me out. supposedly, he intended to prevent the French from taking Indochina back from the
whoever held it at the time. Then Roosevelt died, leaving his VP totally clueless and in the dark. Truman had to virtually wing it. (about many things) So, when the British started to transport French soldiers back to Indochina, Truman went along with it. Roosevelt would have opposed it. Or so I read. So, what would have happened had Truman been aware of what Roosevelt had planned? Although sometimes I suspect that even Roosevelt did not know what Roosevelt had planned. Anyway
Truman had a lot of options after the war ended. Some (many) he did that Roosevelt would not have done. Perhaps a better question would be "What if Roosevelt had lived out his fourth term without being a decrepit wreck?" |
Rapier Miniatures | 18 May 2014 10:26 a.m. PST |
Truman did oppose it, and the first time the French in IndoChina got aid was when Korea kicked off and he realised he might have the same battles in French indochina as well, then they started supplieing embargoed arms to France for use. |
Inkpaduta | 18 May 2014 10:41 a.m. PST |
Agree, the Cold War made Truman and the US back the play of France and other non-communist colonial powers. So I doubt anything would have changed. Now, if Roosevelt had lived, still believing that he could control "Uncle Joe" then things could have been different. |
TNE2300 | 18 May 2014 11:05 a.m. PST |
what if Wilson hadn't snubbed Ho Chi Mihn at Versailles? |
zippyfusenet | 18 May 2014 11:19 a.m. PST |
Truman may not have know all the details of Roosevelt's intrigues, but I'm sure he knew Roosevelt was working for the destruction of the European empires and the establishment of a world-wide neocolonial Pax Americana. It was pretty obvious. Nonetheless, in 1945-6 it was US transports that shipped French troops to Indo-China and Dutch troops to Indonesia. Our imperialist allies no longer had the sea lift capacity to reclaim their own empires. If we had not moved their troops, the Viets and Indonesians would have kept the independence that they claimed when Japan surrendered. In our time-line, both these countries had to fight bloody wars of national liberation against their colonial masters. We made that happen. I am told that in 1945 De Gaulle directly threatened Truman that the French people would rise up and vote communist (and strike, and sabotage, and fight a revolution), and that he, De Gaulle would personally lead them into the Communist International if the US didn't assist France in regaining the empire. Truman believed De Gaulle's threats. Stalinist crimes were not yet widely known in the west, and there were strong communist movements in all the European countries that had been devastated by the war. Truman made it his first priority to save western Europe for capitalism. The Marshall plan fed the starving populations and put them to work rebuilding, while American military power was committed to support imperial pretensions in southeast Asia. |
David Manley | 18 May 2014 11:27 a.m. PST |
"I have read that one of Roosevelt's war aims was to put an end to European colonial empires." I always thought that was a bit rich since the USA is essentially an empire that just happens (standfast Hawaii and Alaska) to be connected. I wonder if Roosevelt ever thought about deconstructing his own empire? :) |
Redroom | 18 May 2014 11:46 a.m. PST |
Don't forget the Philippines too (won from the Spanish). |
Garand | 18 May 2014 11:51 a.m. PST |
The Philippines at least was on the road to independence before that was interrupted by the Japanese. Postwar independence was a continuation of a lead-up that was already going on. Damon. |
zippyfusenet | 18 May 2014 12:12 p.m. PST |
Precisely Garand. The Phillipines, Cuba, our relations with Latin America were all models for a neocolonial American sphere of influence. Not an empire. The United States generally refused extra-territorial rights in China, did not try to carve out any particular zone of influence, but demanded an Open Door and hoped to dominate All Under Heaven. The United States dabbled in proper imperialism in the 1890s, but retreated from empire. Rather than constantly fight wars of conquest and suppress rebellions, it was better to allow foreign peoples their independent states, with their own flags, armies and postage stamps, and rule by local elites. The goal was to engage everywhere in profitable trade, and the United States elites felt confident of our ability to do that due to our natural advantages, without having to enforce trade at the point of a bayonet. David Manly, the continental United States is certainly not an empire. It is a post-colonial settler society. There are no subject peoples here. The original owners have overwhelmingly been assimilated or wiped out. We are all Americans now. I have no intention of arguing about the morality, values, or superiority of these systems to any other systems. They are what they are. They certainly are. |
darthfozzywig | 18 May 2014 4:00 p.m. PST |
I always thought that was a bit rich since the USA is essentially an empire ROFL.
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MAD MIKE | 18 May 2014 4:51 p.m. PST |
For the USA to be considered an Empire, one who have to demonstrate a history of conquering other people's lands and either ruling them directly or installing puppet governments that act in American interests. That has certainly never happened. |
Murphy | 18 May 2014 5:18 p.m. PST |
I always wonder what it would've been like had FDR lived out his fourth term
would he have run for a fifth, or what? |
Murphy | 18 May 2014 5:19 p.m. PST |
Secondly
.everything in the post Roosevelt/present Truman world of international geo-politics, suddenly was turned on it's head in 1947 due to a little "incident" in a desert in New Mexico
. |
Etranger | 18 May 2014 5:34 p.m. PST |
For the USA to be considered an Empire, one who have to demonstrate a history of conquering other people's lands and either ruling them directly or installing puppet governments that act in American interests. That has certainly never happened Was that meant to be ironic? |
MAD MIKE | 18 May 2014 5:53 p.m. PST |
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Lion in the Stars | 18 May 2014 6:19 p.m. PST |
I always wonder what it would've been like had FDR lived out his fourth term
would he have run for a fifth, or what? I suspect not. At least, assuming that the war ended at the historical time. The point was to keep the same policy and head of government through the war. That's why FDR ran for terms 3 and 4. |
zippyfusenet | 18 May 2014 6:21 p.m. PST |
ruling them directly = colonialism or installing puppet governments that act in American interests. = neocolonialism |
Legion 4 | 18 May 2014 8:58 p.m. PST |
I always thought that was a bit rich since the USA is essentially an empire Just another frustrated Red Coat still upset about losing, the New World to a bunch of rustic colonials
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Legion 4 | 18 May 2014 9:02 p.m. PST |
what if Wilson hadn't snubbed Ho Chi Mihn at Versailles? The world certainly may have been a different place
Of course he'd still have to convince the British and French. Who were quite busy carving up the losers' former empires
and making sure they retained their own
But such is Geo-politics
Plenty of finger pointing to go around
Just think of all the lives the wouldn't have been lost, if after WWII, "French Indo-Chine" would have been given their independence
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Legion 4 | 18 May 2014 9:11 p.m. PST |
We are all Americans now. Indeed
we are
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David Manley | 18 May 2014 9:45 p.m. PST |
"Just another frustrated Red Coat still upset about losing, the New World to a bunch of rustic colonials" LOl, no, just amused by blatant hypocrisy, that's all :) Don't worry, our own pollies amuse me in the same way too. |
Legion 4 | 19 May 2014 8:21 a.m. PST |
Hypocisy is all part of politics
if it wasn't no one would get elected
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Whatisitgood4atwork | 19 May 2014 11:16 p.m. PST |
'We are all Americans now.‘ All y'all speak for y'all self now. |
Legion 4 | 20 May 2014 8:42 a.m. PST |
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zippyfusenet | 21 May 2014 2:41 p.m. PST |
It was television that finally homogenized us. If you watch enough American TV, you'll be one of us too. |
Legion 4 | 22 May 2014 7:41 a.m. PST |
Good point
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