GarrisonMiniatures | 18 May 2014 2:40 a.m. PST |
link Well, domino theory was really right
But current events are really showing a twist. China is making a lot of enemies, and I keep thinking that the US really underestimated the effects of Nationalism. A good 'what if' Cold War scenario – 'what if' the US had not supported the South, but instead had embraced and welcomed a united Communist Vietnam state when the French were defeated? I think that current events suggest Vietnam would not have appreciated Chinese interference then and the US may have had a strong ally in the area. It's certainly worth thinking about for scenarios in that era. |
Dye4minis | 18 May 2014 3:37 a.m. PST |
Indeed, Ho Chi Mihn (Spelling?) approached the USA in the 50's for support. The Eisenhower administration turned them away as they were at the time, fighting America's old Ally, France. He had somewhat of an obligation to support his old ally. Had this been in the 60's, when the decolonization efforts were in full swing, the results could have been as you propose. Still, a good "what if" scenario! What seems most troubling (as a milestone for possible future actions taken by China) is their removal of Chinese Citizens from Vietnam. |
Sajiro | 18 May 2014 4:42 a.m. PST |
Didn't China and Vietnam shoot it out over a border dispute back in the 70s or 80s? Heard that Vietnam came out mostly on top and the PLA underwent modernization efforts shortly after. |
The Gray Ghost | 18 May 2014 5:35 a.m. PST |
China is a giant Yugoslavia waiting to happen |
Sobieski | 18 May 2014 5:40 a.m. PST |
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Tgunner | 18 May 2014 6:29 a.m. PST |
Yes they did
link Goes to show you that history and nationalism trump politics! Another what if could be that the US sticks it out and RVN survives. How different would Asia be then? If history is any guide it was be one of the little "dragons" like S. Korea and Taiwan. So how would it fit into the whole s. China Sea affair? Would there be north/south unity in the face of Chinese aggression? |
Legion 4 | 18 May 2014 8:08 a.m. PST |
Sino-Vietnamese War '79 – link |
Zargon | 18 May 2014 9:46 a.m. PST |
Wha you whan? I no can hear yhou ;) (well who to be friends with now ,hemm- who do we dislike least? What's in it for us eh? Same problems same questions same response. (How about just letting it be for once IMO) |
kallman | 18 May 2014 4:43 p.m. PST |
Sadly we cannot just let it be Zargon. Despite the fact there is a growing move toward isolationism in the United States that genie has long left the bottle and will not be put back. Most governments in the world want the United States to continue to be the watchful parent/policeman/driver of economic freedom/protector of the concept of rule of law,etc. No other government in the history of the world has been in a better position to do so. Yes it means from time to time America catches a lot of crap and some of it is rightly deserved but ask any diplomat from Europe, UK, Japan, many a Middle Eastern country and yes African countries as well as South East Asia and they all want us in the game. The alternatives are not better and we are if anything else very much the lesser evil. As Winston Churchill once opined, "America always does the right thing, after it has exhausted all other options." |
Whatisitgood4atwork | 18 May 2014 11:20 p.m. PST |
'A good 'what if' Cold War scenario – 'what if' the US had not supported the South, but instead had embraced and welcomed a united Communist Vietnam state when the French were defeated?' I think McNamara eventually came to the same conclusion. Rather too late to help however. He admitted the main reason for US involvement was the domino theory, which totally ignored that Vietnam did not want to be a Chinese domino, and that China did not want to be a Russian domino either. In other words, that nationalism was still a force to be reckoned with. A cursory reading of Vietnamese history would show their greatest heroes all fought against the Chinese. It would have hastened the China-Vietnam falling out by some years, and may possibly have saved Cambodia. There would almost certainly be fewer Russian beach resorts in Vietnam today too. 'China is one big Yugoslavia waiting to happen.' Personally, I cannot agree, though the inherent tensions of China were recognised long ago: "The world under heaven, after a long period of division, tends to unite. After a long period of union, tends to divide." This is just one of many different translations of the most famous opening line in Chinese literature, but it will suffice. |
SouthernPhantom | 24 May 2014 7:53 a.m. PST |
whitemanticore, we have neither the resources nor the public willingness to do what you say. Let the others sort themselves out, send SF or another QRF if we are directly threatened. What The Grey Ghost says about China goes double for the US, with a nice mixture of the specter of a USSR-style bankruptcy to top it off. |
Weasel | 05 Jun 2014 11:09 a.m. PST |
While the Chinese helped Vietnam during the wars against France and the US there was certainly no love lost. I imagine the Vietnamese found the Russians more palatable allies since they were some distance away rather than next door, and would act as a counter balance to a rising power. This came to a point when China invaded Vietnam in response to Vietnam taking out the Cambodian regime. A lot could have gone differently but due to world war 2 alliances, the only place colonies generally had to turn for weapons was the USSR and China. |