"Austrian Uniforms 1793." Topic

Very interesting.

link

For translation you can used.
translate.google.com/#de/en

Hope you enjoy!.

Amicalement
Armand

Cool link. Thanks for that.

Very nice, just painting up some Austrians as we speak. Thanks!

Hi Tango,

Thank you very much for sharing this; this is an excellent resource. I have some miniature Austrians of this period which I hope to start painting soon. I'll save this link!

Jeff

I have those on my tablet. Very handy when painting my Eureka WFR Austrians!

Keep in mind that the uniform of the Gernalquartiermeisterstab changed in 1798 from blue to dark green – there the dark blue coat was too similiar to French national guard and generals uniform.

The same for the Stabsdragoner – originaly dark blue coat red facings – but already at the beginning of the revolutionary wars the coat was changed to grass green with black facings

A further clarification.. these are not necessarily the uniforms that would have been seen on the battle field in 1793 as most prints are dated 1781 to 1791.

The long out of print "Les campagnes de la Révolution" by Jean Tranie and J.C. Carmigniani and Military History Press' more recent "Napoleon's First Italian Campaign in Italy" using text from Phipps' series on the Revolutionary War and Napoleon's Marshalls both contain contemporary prints of Austrian uniforms witnessed in the Austrian Netherlands.

Two interesting observations for those collecting figures or armies for this period are 1) Latour Dragoons and 2) Austrian Uhlan uniforms. In the case of Latour, this regiment raised in Belgium was apparently wearing a green coat (I believe the uniform it would wear for most of the Napoleonic Wars)and traditionally wore its headgear.. either a flattened tricorn or a genuine bicorn in the cocked manner as opposed to across the head in line with the shoulders (which I believe was regulation for most professional armies at the time).

Regarding the Austrian Uhlans, the prints re-produced in MHP's recent book show images in both green and light-grey-blue. So their appearance would likely be mixed as their uniform went through transition during the out-break of the revolutionary wars.

Cheers!
Beeker

Hello Beeker
very usefull clarifications…and thanks so much Tango for this resource
Beeker as you refer to Jean Tranie and J.C. Carmigniani's beautiful books that i have..in those texts Austrian infantry is, sometime, represented with the new uniform (crested helmnet and conventional bacpack)..which, in wargaming approach, give us the possibility to increase our Early Austrian Napoleonics armies with the affordable plastic minis offered by a manufacture…Do you think it could be historically correct or "passable" to mix units of old style Austrians with above mentioned plastic ones?..PS: i only play French Revolution Wars not true Napoleonic.
thanks
regards

The Austrian "helmut" headgear came out in 1798 regulations and generally later than that date due to delay issuing out to the army in the field. The 1790's "Kasket" headgear was the common headgear till 1800. Units which were based in Austria then transferred to the Italian front seem to have the 1798 helmut headgear for the 1799 onwards campaign in Italy.

M

Happy you enjoyed the link boys!. (smile).

Amicalement
Armand

Hi Italwars – yes, what TMPWargamerabbit says.

The 4-6 year period from 1798 to 1800-1802 was 'transitional' across many armies who fought in both the Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars. Just about every German state (including Austria and Prussia) went through a significant change.

There are some great exchanges here on TMP about the Austrian transition from the Revolution to Napoleonic periods. Many discussions note the plates from T. Mollo and G. Mansfield in 1798 as being the point at which a lot of confusion begins.

These plates show the new, simple uniforms with helmets, which, as TMPWR points out, really were not rolled out until 1800 and then would not have been sufficient in number until the next conflict in 1805. Some – including Artillery in helmet – never saw the light of day.

For those who are keen on Marengo and the final wars of the Consular period kasketts would still be the norm. That said I would not be critical of anyone who fielded an army in the new uniforms.. there are some great AAR reports here on TMP which I enjoy – I just use my imagination .. :)

If you are interested in the historical challenge there was even a discussion here years back about the unique and 'somewhat' colourful Bussy / Jaeger zu Pferd. As per the Mollo plates they are in grey jaeger uniforms with helmets serving, essentially, as cheval-leger.

Information provided by a 'then' TMP member cast some interesting light on this unit …. I'm afraid I cannot find the reference but it goes several years back.

IIRC, Bussy had its beginning as either an Imperial (Kreis) or Swiss (perhaps part Émigré?) unit that would have been originally outfitted in a blue coat with soft tricorne or contemporary bicorne. It was brought down into Italy to fight with Suvarov and the Russians in 1799.

One of the conclusions from that exchange was that given the state of Austrian organization it is unlikely that Bussy wore the jaeger uniform depicted by Mollo at Marengo.

What I find fascinating though is that if you look at the painting of the Battle of Marengo by Lejeune.. as the French cavalry are pouring through the ranks of the Austrians and chasing off or taking prisoner the Generals you can see a lone figure running (in dragoon green) wearing a helmet.

So, from that I take away the following: nothing is impossible and I would hesitate before judging what another person would want to field as an appropriate representation.

All the best!
Beeker

Neither MHP nor Carmignianis books are to be relied on – they contain some very usefull information – in case it is contemporary – like the Gregorious prints – but for modern artist one has to stay very sceptical.

I tend escpecially to ignore the work or recent military artist – with the exception of Bernard Coppens and Patrice Courcelle about Revoltionary armies.

In case about Latour Chevaulegers (which would be the right term) – they were converted in 1791 from a dragoon regiment into a Chevauleger Regiment – it might well be that they carried their old "dragoon" uniform for a while and the coat was white – also the dragoon head gear in contrast to Chevaulegers – was a hat in tricorne shape – a bicorne as such never existed in any army with the exception of the Prussian one in 1792 to 1797 – the front brim had always a sort of peak – not a classical tricorne as in the early 18th century but certainly not a tricorne.

The Chevaulegers should of course wear a Kasket, I don't know when the Latour Chevaulegers adopted it, neither a green coat, it would be an interesting research topic.

As for Ulanen – I would be interested to see contemporary prints with grey tunics instead of green ones in 1792.

As to the 1798 regulation – it were only gradually introduced so the bulk of the Austrian units in the 1800 campaign would still wear their old uniforms – equipment and muskets.

In the excellent publication

Bonaparte
Bicentenaire du passage des Alpes
1800 – 2000
Fondation Pierre Gianadda

There are two excellent contemporary prints about Austrian POWs of about 1799 / 1800, the majoirty wear the Kasket – but some few certainly did wear the helmet, another good source is a painting about the battle of Zürich.

There are a lot of misconceptions about Austrian Revolutionary uniforms – such as the brown coat for Grenzer – which was still white in 1799 / 1800.

I would regard the Artaria plates was very solid basis for the 1792 to 1798 Austrian Army – another usefull place to look for is the ASK Brown collection were you will find marvellous prints – confirming some text passages I did find (like tricornes for train – worn seemingly in line with the Kaskett)

In case there is more information about the Bussy Jäger zu Pferd from Beeker – I would be very much interested to learn more about it.

Lejeune is usually painting uniforms worn one or two years later as when the incidence he painted – occured.

thanks to all…was'nt expecting such a really acamedic lesson on Austrian Revolutionary Army ..very useful
thanks again

Well, seems that not all my threads are useless mon ami? (smile).

Amicalement
Armand

You are a font of information Armand. Many thanks. Charles

Tango..the only thing which is sometime "useless" on your threads is your esprit de finesse and elegance in answering to counter the Dervish type rough attacks that you received, sometime, from some tugs…thanks again

Armand, this is not 'your' thread--Markus Stein posted news of his publication on the Napoleon Series Forum three days earlier: link . Without attribution Armand, you are again accepting plaudits for someone else's efforts. Again. (No smile)

You are right Italwars!.

Sir Greystreak, nobody is "owner" of any thread, one simply shows or shares what you seen elsewhere.

There are not applausses here, only comments.

Nobody talk about when or were herr Stein post his publication, only inform about it.

Amicalement (yes… smile).
Armand

Hi Tango – many thanks for this… do I get to call you cousin now? :)

von Winterfeldt – for Latour I have two plates in green with hat and a wonderful reference from Phipps. There is a plate in Elting's Uniforms featuring Herbert Knotel's work. This image shows the rider wearing a tricorne in a green coat.

My guess is the second image is the more reliable. It is plate 37 from a series of watercolours published in Leipzig in 1794, based on Oesterreichischer Militar-Almanach uniform schemas from 1793-94. The figure is in a green coat and the hat is clearly in a cocked position referenced in Phipps' work.

Images of Austrian Uhlans in blue/grey and green uniforms can be found from the same series in slides 30 and 36.

This series is one of two reproduced in the Appendices of MHP's "Napoleon's First Campaigns" courtesy of the Anne. S.K. Brown Military Collection. Each series (the second is of French troops) is introduced by David Hollins and Alfred Umhey respectively.

I mention David Hollins because it could have been a contribution from him here on TMP that led me to question the uniform for Bussy in 1800. I will have to search further for that exchange.

Cheers!
Beeker

@Beeker
Thank you for the clues, I checked the Militär Almanach of 1792 and 1793 (available at google books) – in 1792 Latour has still white coats and in 1793 – green, seemingly quite a lot of other chevaulegers changed from white coats to green ones in 1793.
The change of coats wouldn't happen overnight.
Herbert Knötel is a weak source and not that reliable.
By chance – you cannot cite Phipps on that ( I have all 5 volumes) to cross check??

Brother-cousin my friend!. (smile).

Amicalement
Armand

LaTour

I checked the regimentel history:

Treuenfest : Geschichte des k.k. Dragoner Regimentes Feldmarschall Alfred fürst zu Windisch – Graez Nr. 14, Wien 1886

which contains La Tour.

It provides some interesting information about the uniforms at page 216 and 217, the La Tour Dragoons should be awarded with a green coat in November 1790 and should retain the tricorne with a black and yellow plume as distinction.

In July 1790 it should be converted into a Chevauleger regiment but there the necessary equipment, uniforms, horses couldn't be provided it was decided that it stayed to be a Dragoon regiment.

I couldn't find information when it was finally transformed into a Chevauleger regiment, but the Militär Almanch suggest that this would have happened in 1793.

At least up to the end of 1793 I would opt for the old white uniform and the usual tricorne which the dragoons did carry.

at about page 232 there is a colour plate from which Herbert Knötel did use for his plate published by Elting – he changed the colour of the staff of the standard though.

I did not find anything about Bussy Jäger in the Militär Almanch of 1799 other then the usual grey uniform, I checked other Almanchs but couldn't find any further information.

To go on with LaTour

In the Sächsischen Landesbibliothek Dresden there is the so called Reilly – showing the Austrian Army of 1796 -

here the link

link

You will be able to find LaTour – not under Chevaulegers but still as Dragoons in the white uniform and Dragoon outfit.

One is able to download the complete picture manuscript

Quite interesting info Von Winterfeldt.
Many thanks for share!.

Amicalement
Armand

Bussy Jäger

The Chronica Rovatti confirms in 1799 the light grey blue uniform along with green crested helmet.

@Beeker
Are you able to give a quote from Phipps about LaTour?

Interesting thread. The discussion on the Latour got me thinking about an old problem. The cheavuleger regiments switch back and forth in status as dragoons resepectively chevalegers. Would you classify them as light or heavy in 1798-1800 in wargame terms?

@VW – still scanning. Went from pg 1 to 203 in book no. 1. Armee de la Nord. Suspect its in Book 2.

Will get to it eventually .. I imagine.. long weekend in Canada and must take children to mini-golf! :)

Will check back in with my results later in the week.

Nothing to add on Bussy. I hope to scan the N-Series.. It is entirely possible that I am referring to an exchange there.

Cheers!
Beeker

@Beeker
OK – let me know when you find it.

About Bussy Jäger, as said above the Chronica Rovatti shows an officer in the usual light grey uniform with green crested helmet, in the prints of the catalogue I mentioned above some Austrian POWs looked like the usual Bussy Jäger

Wrede in his epic work about the Austrian Army – provides in his volume 3 (cavalry) first part some suefull information:

Raised by the bisop of Paderborn in 1795 as Frei – Corps – zu Pferde (4 squadrons), it formed the Reichs contigent und was incorporated into full IMperial service in Marcn 1797 and increased to 6 squadrons.

In June 1798 it was increased to 8 squadrons by incorporating the Hussars of Boubon, Rohan and Carneville, in 1800 a 5th Division was formed (10 squadrons then)

The Chronica Rovatti and the print from the catalogue – seem to agree on the conventional uniform and are strong sources in my view.

@Beeker

Any luck yet? Can you quote at least from Napoleons Army in Italy??
I cannot find anything in Phipps

Hi VM,

Nadda so far.

I'm certain its in either Book 1 or 2. I don't recall it being in the Armies in Italy book (book 3?). I do know that its a comment provided by Phipps and not a citation so it is likely buried in his prose and detailed description of some the actions that occurred at the time.

Very frustrating as this is the second reference in Phipps that I can not find. I'm also looking for a passage in (I'm assuming book 1 or le Nord) that concerns the famous Atlas Ferraris and how one of the many commanders of that Army specifically requested a copy of it for his HQ.

This too has fallen into the Bermuda Triangle that is Phipps work! :)

Will continue to look and let you know when I find it.

Cheers!
Beeker

Greystreak,
It's not entirely Tango's fault. If the sheeple here don't bother to visit The Napoleon Series site, or use Google once in a while, then Tango is going to seem like a magician. A poor man's Steve Smith if you will.

I remember a very characterful ?C19 illustration of the Bussy Jagers in light/pike grey, rallying after a charge at Marengo, with the Foot Grenadiers of the Consular Guard fleeing from them into the distance.
IIRC some of the Jagers are picking up abandoned bearskin caps on the points of their swords and brandishing them at the French. Wish I could remember who it was by and try to get a copy.

It is in Dave Hollins epic Marengo

VW – I still owe you a response on Phipps. Alas I have not been able to locate the reference to Latour. I think it is there.. somewhere but my reference to green uniform with cocked hat most likely comes from Haythornthwaite's Osprey M@A 181 Austrian Cavalry p. 10-11.

Cheers!
Beeker

I checked the first 2 volumes of Phipps as well, couldn't find anything about the uniforms
I checked MAA as above, yes indeed, the information is drawn most likley from the regimental history from which also Knötel copied the illustration – for me, at about 1793 they should wear the usual regulation uniform