"Step 1: Define the Problem" Topic

I'm told we have a problem in our community, with respect to our forums.

As a first step to a solution, I'd like us to try to define exactly what the problem is.

Some possibilities:

1. One person can post too many topics per day.
2. There are two many off-topic topics on the main forum.
3. ???

As a gentleman I refuse to participate in this discussion, and urge all such persons to do the same.

KAM

KAM +1

You just did participate in it.

It seems that people are spoiled by FB and want some of the ability to block or keep threads like facebook posts. Since this technology is not here, they must use that most ancient of tools, patience and perseverance. But alas, those two tools are not liked much even by those who practice them.

I would change the wording on #1. "One person posts too many topics per day."

What that one person posts amounts to SPAM. That person doesn't participate in his own messages, doesn't read what he posts, doesn't read the NEWS, etc., etc., etc. That person just posts anything related to miniatures, history or science that he sees on the internet.

As a result, messages that people are participating in disappear too fast from the front page. Posters that are actually participating in their own messages or have some interest in their own messages are cheated by that one person.

It's like in a crowded train a person occupies more than one seat just because he bought a ticket. May be not against the rules, but not done in civilized society.

I would change the wording on #1. "One person posts too many topics per day."

I wouldn't change it. If there is a policy change, then I suspect it will apply to all and not just one person.

1. You cannot limit one person. You must limit ALL persons. That is, if YOU, the Editor, see a problem. We do not count.

When writing rules never look at the best way a rule can be interpreted, look for the worst way it can be abused.

I'm WAY happier with "TOO MUCH TAN..gential posting" than I would be with arbitrary limits on post counts, word length, or "participation"

The issue of stuff being "pushed off the main page" would be solved with a page 2, 3, etc.

Fix THAT

Either 1) or
perhaps 3) Stifling does not stifle the stifle-ees posts, only their comments in the post. But if this was implemented, any stifled posts should not count towards the 200 post front page limit.

2. Screw that. I see no problem with off topic. We are Wargamers, and sooner or later nothing is off topic. I do not come here to see nothing but graphs of statistical probabilities of dice rolls or the proper shade of green to use for Ruritanian Chasseurs di Fuss.

the proper shade of green to use for Ruritanian Chasseurs di Fuss.

It is medium green as it happens. Everyone else is wrong.

Editor-
I do not think the problem is with the site or the community as a whole. This site is different than most of a similar subject matter. That is what I like most about it. Some people do not like the "problem" mentioned in Possibility #1. As long as the postings remain within the regulations of TMP, I feel they should be allowed to continue. (I have visited the "den of iniquity" for breaching the rules so I know of what I speak.)

As mentioned, some people find these posts inconvenient. Others find them fun and/or informative. To make a change to please one school of thought may well displease the other.

I realize that this site is your bread and butter. Being a small businessman myself, I know that sometimes you have to make a change/decision for monetary reasons rather than by what is fair. If the situation is hitting you in the bottom line, a change should be considered.

I have lurked here as a free-loader long enough. My next stop is the membership page. Thanks for running this site.

Edit: Went to the membership page and got the info I need to join. Doing the snailmail route. It will go out in tomorrow's mail. (Yippee! I always wanted to tell somebody "…but the check is in the mail!")

From what I remember, and I admit my memory is not what it should be. Pre-tango we had posts about.

Medical advice
legal advice
car repair
computer tech help
MMORP video games
gardening
dating
cable service (thanks John)
Ect.

So I do not see as this is a new problem only a new participant.

BTW there is not a lot of point coming here every day without Tango if it only takes me 5 minutes to look at all the posts that interest me.

Whereas if Tango is posting I usually spend 45 minutes or more and see things I did not know existed.

Here is a radical solution:

Get rid of the new topic feed on the front page and put up the board index instead.
Then users will have to go to the topics that actually interest them and not get concerned about seeing anything that doesn't.

I'm with IGWARG. Limit the number of posts per day and your problem is solved.
I personally find it sad that someone needs so desperately
to call attention to himself by posting numerous posts when so many have asked him to stop.
Just suppose that every member decided to do the same thing that this person does.
What would happen to the forum then?

Remember that this is a private forum, so the "free speech"
rule does not attach. Since I am a supporting member, I am entitled to specific benefits. I pay for those. I also agree to abide by the rules set forth by the editor. If the editor decides that he wishes to invoke a rule to limit posts per day that's his prerogative. I can quit and get a refund, if I disagree, but I have zero right to demand that I be allowed to break his rules. Thus, so called "free speech" does not apply.

This is all a smokescreen, anyway. How can you be the editor and not know what the problem continues to be? Why do you pretend not to know?
I would love to see what percentage of paying customers would like this rule invoked. Because it seems to me, that the non-payers seem to be firmly in the unlimited post camp while the paying customer is against it.
Could it be that many of the paying customers are tired of seeing their messages knocked off the front page because of the selfishness of one person? So how about a poll that only paying members can vote in? Think about that, Mr. Editor.

There is no problem on TMP (in this context) that a simple application of the scroll wheel or the page down button cannot fix. Do not pander to whiners who are too lazy to do either.

Doug

"I personally find it sad that someone needs so desperately
to call attention to himself by posting numerous posts when so many have asked him to stop.
Just suppose that every member decided to do the same thing that this person does.
What would happen to the forum then?"

Who is it that is looking for attention? The guy that shares his hobby finds on a hobby site or the guy whining about it?

Just suppose that every member of the forum decided to spend time trawling the internet for interesting and relevant information and thought to share that with the community. What would happen to the forum, then? Certainly a tragedy that can strike at any moment… Watch out, an abundance of good information is only a few clicks away from becoming a reality!

I agree with the idea of a page 2 or 3. While not knowing how difficult a software fix it would be it seems to be the easiest.

What IGWARG1 said.

The super stifle would solve the problem. Nobody would be limited to X number of posts per day. Those who want to see them could. Those who want topics to last longer on their front page would have that ability.

Please Bill – don't put this off indefinitely, don't say that it needs to be voted on, don't put it off until TMP 4.0 – it's your site, you're the Editor, just do it. Give us the super stifle ASAP. Please.

The only to fix it is to shoot everyone and start over. No matter what you do, someone won't like it and will voice their opinion…..very loudly. If I don't want to read something, I just skim past. If I'm following something, I search on my handle, or the subject/era. There are some things on here that are silly but we are grown-ups playing with toy soldiers.

Brian

Well put, Ditto Two Three.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again … start a blog, Tango. There are many similar blogs that post loads of interesting links, because a blog is the perfect platform for doing so.

And you have an advantage over most start-up bloggers in that you've got a ready-made audience.

'The Tango Blog' – it's got a ring about it already!

I'll even help you start it up, if you want. I can design you a nice header pic and general look-and-feel (you can PM me about this, if you want me to help you – I'm genuine about this).

I tried mon ami Arteis, but I cannot understand why in your profile are not the button to send you a message (?)
I really apreciate your offerd but I have to decline it.
Don't want to have a blog.

I'm with pages 2, 3 or more here.

Amicalement
Armand

The reason I am no longer a supporting member is that this problem has been left unaddressed for far too long.

Tango finds some great stuff, every day. That is why I have never stifled him. But he is also incredibly disrespectful of others' time by constantly (1) doing repeat posts, (2) violating copyright, and (3) posting stuff that has no business on this forum.

The end result is a "front page" that is really just Tango's personal reading list, or a history of Tango's recent web searches.

I agree whole-heartedly with IGWARG. Either edit this guy, give us a super-stifle, or make a rule, but whatever you do, enough is ENOUGH.

TANGO: if you bother to read this, please consider editing yourself a little. Show a little restraint, and respect for others. There is a reason that FIVE HUNDRED AND TWENTY-ONE users have stifled you. They are not ALL intolerant, irrational jerks.

BILL: There IS a problem here. FIX IT!

If it was possible to prevent seeing posts made by someone you have stifled, across the entire site and message boards a lot of our problems go away.

Don't want to have a blog.

Fair enough, Tango. But you're using TMP as a blog, which is why we have the problem.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't post on TMP for discussion. Like anyone else, you have a perfect right to post. But listing so many links would be better done in a blog, with all that added functionality for posting, previewing, categorising and searching.

My offer still stands (and, sorry, I didn't realise I didn't have a PM button – just email me on roly_hermans at hotmail dot com)

Tango – How about a digest post. Combine relevant posts into one. Say a Napoleonic post with all your finds for the day, a Modern Post etc. I would still read it. Personally I don't have a problem with what you do but having related links in one post would make my life easier too – save me a few clicks.

The super stifle would solve the problem. Nobody would be limited to X number of posts per day. Those who want to see them could. Those who want topics to last longer on their front page would have that ability.

+1 vote to this.

The long proposed and declined uber-stifle, where posts started by a stifled person don't appear, would fix this issue without any muzzling, censorship, post limits or anyon even knowing, really. Bill's never said it was a programming problem, just a time issue. But this issue must now be taking more time to manage and won't go away.

+2 to it. The simplest and easiest fix that pleases everyone.

I am opposed to limiting people.

I do not mind a proportion of 'off-topic' posts. Some will be interesting, others won't. Enjoy the former and ignore the latter. Easy.

The big problem always seems to boil down to stuff dropping off the front page too quickly and getting lost in a myriad of boards. Possible remedies would be to have a front page showing threads with a 'latest post', better search facility, and fewer boards.

Since Tango's posts are akin to a news feed might a solution be to create a new section for them along the lines of 'News Talk' and 'Hobby News'? That way people who do not wish to have them on their front page could just configure their homepage so the board is not displayed.

I enjoy the tangential posts, it takes only a minute or two to glance if something is interesting or not. I'd rather not limit postings.

I would also be the last to propose that we ban people, limit their postings or do any other sort of bonkers soviet style central planning. Despite moaning about autocue postings, I too find some of of Tangos posts useful, it is just blatting the front page I object to.

The basic issue is around how information is presented, organised and managed. Many (but not all) of us use the front page to identify posts of interest, navigate the site and keep up with threads. Once they drop off the front page they are gone, so lots of new posts mean they drop off faster.

Simple solutions (yes, I know some of these aren't that simple) would be:

1. make the front page longer. I already have it set to the maximum of 200 posts and it isn't enough, so making it 400 or a thousand or whatever would help.

2. allow the front page to be ordered by last updated time rather than just first posted time. At least active threads would then float to top.

3. allow thread tagging so you can either hide them (a less unfriendly equivalent of the 'superstifle' and far more targetted) or track the interesting ones. 'no thanks' and 'interested' flags. Once you untick them they go back to the normal sort ordering.

Yes you can track threads with bookmarking, but it is very cumbersome as it is a seperate interface. The 'zones of interest' feature sort of works too, but again you have to hunt around for stuff.

4. A seperate section for Armand would also work I guess 'Tangos News' or whatever, but I am uncomfortable with it as it targets one individual and that isn't really what the internet should be about.

Anyway, my 2p worth.

1. Speak to the relevant member (we all know who it is) and ask them to limit themselves to a handful of threads per day, OR a daily digest of all in a general gaming category.

2. Make him an editor….

3. Limit threads per member to a number per day. If your clever with the coding this number could diminish the more they are stifled/reported, so higher stifles = youre posting rubbish so we are limiting you more and more.

4. Ignore it and continue this stupid situation.

5. Change the front page so it doesn't just show latest posts. Surely most discussed is more important (hot topics in modern forum language).

The problem with a super stifle is like the normal stifle, it means you never see anything that person posts, even if it is actually useful.

so higher stifles = youre posting rubbish

Not sure that that correlation has even been proven. Going against the views of a vocal group by supporting someone being constantly attacked can gain you an awful lot of stifles. It's not always rubbish, just not going with the mob.

"5. Change the front page so it doesn't just show latest posts. Surely most discussed is more important (hot topics in modern forum language)."

Bloody good idea. +1.

If non-paying members get a vote (smile), mine will be for the 'super stifle'.

Like Ivan DBA, I ended my supporting membership because of this problem. I still visit TMP regularly, but I have voted with my wallet – I am no longer willing to financially endorse the way that one member's unchecked actions are allowed to greatly reduce the usefulness of the front page for others.

I intend to re-subscribe once this problem is resolved. I had thought I'd have to wait for TMP 4.0, but if it can be fixed sooner than that, then great.

The 'super stifle' described above would seem to be an effective solution that wouldn't restrict anybody's use of the forum.

I agree the superstifle would be the most useful solution.

However, if that is not possible in the current TMP version, then certainly Martin Rapier´s point two of having frontpage topics show up according to most recent post would be the way.

Firstly, I would be in the pro-Tango side, if there were sides.

Secondly, I can sympathise to some extent with the other side. I disagree with them but I see their point. There seems to be three main thrusts to their argument.
1) Tango posts too many threads about stuff already discussed, often quite recently.
2) In the individual boards the name of the author of each thread is not shown, so they can click on a Tango thread without realising.
3) The number of Tango posts pushes other items off the front page.

Of these, the third one seems to be the biggest bugbear. Without some changes to the way the board works you can't fix any of these, if indeed they need fixing. However, there are a lot of disgruntled people it would seem, so some fixes might be a good idea?

Various solutions get offered. I will give you my thoughts on a few.
1) Any that single a member out for different treatment should be discounted. That is just plain wrong.
2) Restricting number of posts for members is silly. You need prolific members to keep the board vibrant and I'm sure you need it to run a business!
3) Super stifle, so you don't see anyone's threads either, would work. And as it doesn't effect the person stifled, why not?
4) Change front page, so it can show most active posts, or posts you tag, or posts you have posted in, or similar.
5) Put OP's name next to thread on individual boards.
6) Give out some tolerance, patience and understanding?

What Parmenion said. I'd sooner be a supporting member than not and once this is sorted I will be once more.

Either there is a technical solution to this and we can choose to 'turn off' the member in question or there is a management solution in which the Editor intervenes directly with the member concerned. I don't mind either way.

I too didn't renew my supporting membership over this issue. A super stifle would work but I'd prefer the editor to just have a quiet word with anyone causing this much continued aggravation. I'm sure that after such a conversation any reasonable person would look to try to limit behaviour that is upsetting so many people, especially if this isn't their intention. Putting a days worth of links in one topic instead of a separate topic for each link seems to resolve this particular problem. Apologies to female members but surely this is just gentlemanly conduct?

Hi,

#1 is the issue.

Restrict everyone to 10 topics a day and I believe most of the problems will disappear.

Do so stats on topics per day per member over the last 5 years and you will find only a handful of members >10 with a huge tail of those <10.

Cheers,
JohnG

I really think defining the problem in terms of individual members is the wrong approach. Suppose that membership doubled and lots more people were posting. You'd have the same problem finding posts that interest you on the front page because of sheer volume. So focus on redesigning the way the front page works, not trying to create new tools to target people. If you could easily hide or unhide posts on the front page that might help. Let's say you hid 20 unwanted posts and the screen refreshed to reveal 20 older posts, would that solve the problem? Is that a simple fix or a programming nightmare? We have to consider what is in the realm of the possible for this humble site that doesn't have the resources of FB and the like.

My view is that the problem is that if one member (or more) posts too many topics, of a single type, in one day, it can spoil the user experience for some people, including me. Although it is certainly possible to scroll past one person's posts I personally find this can be a chore, maybe it's my eyesight, and reading TMP is a leisure activity.

Several positive suggestions have already been made in various discussions:

A limit on the number of new topics any member can make in a day. I like this idea, I would suggest that, perhaps, this could take the form of a change in the rules, and is based on the average number of topics over a given period of time. This would allow a degree of flexibility, not involve any software changes, and very importantly treat all users equally.

A "found on the internet" or "heads up" section for posts that are just links to other sites. Other forums I have used have these, they can be a very useful way of separating out this type of post. If it's possible within the TMP format I'd suggest making such a section appear on the configure homepage page, or if it becomes part of the message boards, making it a zone of interest, so users can control whether they see it. While such a measure would resolve the current situation it would not prevent excessive starting of any other type of topic.

Harnessing the enthusiasm of a prolific poster by giving them their own board. As long as this is done in a way that does not restrict that person from fully participating in all the other areas of TMP, this could be a good thing.

The "Super Stifle". I think this would be a great feature to have, but only helps if I'm willing to stifle the poster concerned.

On the whole I think a combination of a limit on the number of topics started, together with a separate links section, perhaps with higher topic starting limits, might provide a way of resolving this to most peoples satisfaction.

As to off topic posts, I'm not seeing a massive problem with this, and the rules already cover it.
(Edit: I type slowly, so had not read all the posts immediately above mine when writing my post)

Rather than restricting posts, restrict the number of threads someone can start in one day. These are two different issues, because you can post a comment in any thread.

I think the best solution would be if the individual in question would post all his links in one or two threads – then, anyone interested can go to that link or two. His threads rarely have more than three or four comments so comments wouldn't make the threads unduly long.

However, the fact that the individual in question has not made any show of changing his behavior despite numerous complaints from forum members indicates that he has no interest in being part of the community other than to post dozens of topics each day that may or may not be of interest to anyone. In light of this, the superstifle is the next best option in my opinion. How often does anyone take the time to unstifle someone they've stifled just to read a thread or a post that may or may not be relevant?

But this brings me back to my original point: how many people start more than three or five (to choose an arbitrary number) threads a day? We've seen it on the Marketplace, and when pointed out that this wasn't a reasonable way to do business, the offending individuals started lumping their offerings in one or two threads.

Which brings up a good question – why will most individuals limit themselves out of good will and respect to other forum members, but one individual in particular out right refuses to?

If there simpy MUST be a solution to this probem (which I see as nonexistent, myself), the super-stifle is the obvious answer. The capability could even be a perk of supporting membership.

Doug