"Why fight the Separatists at all?" Topic

Hi all,

This question has been nagging me for some time. According to the film's internal logic, if thousands of star systems wanted to secede from the Republic, what right did the Senate and Jedi think they had to try to stop them? Why the need for the war at all? It's not like the American Civil War situation, when Washington had every incentive to stop the South from breaking away because, if it did not, the two states would end up prey to bigger international fish and because Lincoln was to a greater or lesser extent opposed to slavery.

Within the films, is any explicit justification made for the Republic's war, apart from the fact that Dooku and the Geonosians try to murder two Jedi and a senator?

I do wish Lucas had made *cloning* the war's raison d'etre, with the Republic trying to stop the Separatists using cloning on a massive scale to create millions of cost-effective slaves (hints of ACW), whom they then enlist to fight against the Republic. Then the Republic could have followed suit, in desperation creating its own clone units, purely to fight fire with fire: the end justifies the means (as a suitably insincere Palpatine would have put it to the dubious Jedi and Senate). These Republic clones could then have been given Order 66, just as in the films.

When first mentioned in Ep IV, the term 'Clone Wars' made it sound like the clones were the *enemies*, not one's own soldiers.

The Jedi Order was pretty nasty. They just tromped around the galaxy chopping up anyone they felt had crossed them and the Republic. No warrant or trial needed. They are the muscle enforcers of the Republic. With thugs like that, why would you think the Republic itself wasn't nasty?

After smugglers leave blood on the floor, they at least have the common courtesy to toss some money to the barkeep at the tapcafe for the cleanup and the trouble. Jedi just mutter "Jedi business" and stroll out the door.

I think that Lucas missed a great opportunity in the 2nd film. He should have had Count Dooku be a 'Good' guy who realized that the there was a dark influence over the Jedi and he and the Separatists were fighting to save the Republic from what it was changing too. That would have given those films a load more depth and made the fall of the Jedi almost a penance. It also would give more importance to Luke reviving the Jedi in a positive way.

There was no reason for the wat beyond Palpatine's manulipulations to achieve his own goals. He was running both sides of the war in order to create the need for himself in charge. He didn't seize his power, it was granted to him. He just didn't relinquish it as advertised.

Asking Lucas to make sense is pointless.

The reason is simple, they wanted to be in charge. If you want a bit more than that than it comes down to economics. If chunks of your nation break away they don't pay taxes and your economy is weakened. Any morality you try and apply to that is generally false. Even in the ACW while the South seceded over the right to own slaves, most of the anger in the North was about the secession (and subsequent Southern aggression against the North) not slavery.

Some of the EU Clone Wars stuff (such as the Republic Commando series) does a good job of filling out the motivations of the Separatists and the Republic.

I thought the trade union attacked Naboo under Palpatine's direction which started the war?

Trumped up, but shots were fired.

The problem is that there never should have been any more movies after the first one.

Palpatine pretty much was pulling all the strings.

Good question.
(Oh, and Lincoln was a racist SOB. He hardly gave two wheeps about emancipation until it became politically expedient. I'm an unreconstructed Southerner-before-American though. Anyways.)

I tend to side with the Separatists because, bluntly speaking, they had legitimate concerns and really didn't commit any blatantly, monstrously wrong actions in the films. The Republic, and with it the Jedi, *needed* to fall.

In the Star Wars Combine, I play my character as the descendant of a CIS officer. It's set in the GCW/New Republic era, but the CIS still exists as a few enclave systems close to the Unknown Regions.

The seperatists were obviously confused. The Republic was simply trying to…persuade them, yeah, that's it, persuade them to stick around.

"Things fall apart; the center does not hold…"

That's why. The problem with all separatist movements is that they disrupt the established social order and threaten the standing of law and property rights within a system. Thus, the powers-that-be, whether good or bad, have a vested interest in keeping all territories within the established system. If any territory can simply declare its connection to the established order to be null and void at any time, what then, is the meaning of law? It has none. If one territory may decide that it does not wish to abide by the agreed upon system for making and carrying out law, then all the territories may leave, and the centralized system has no authority at all.

By the way, I am not saying that a territory or a people might not have justification to leave a system; indeed, they may be entirely in the right, if the system is immoral or unjust. But the motivation for the established order to maintain itself is still present.

I am with punkrabbitt returns. But Power corrupts. Big government never wants to let go. I see most if not all governments as evil to a bigger or lesser extent. If a government was not to some degree disliked it would not have to worry about people breaking away. You see it all the time in the real world. Look at all the people that want to no longer be apart of the European Union in the UK. If palpatine was ruling the EU he would be pushing for war with the UK if we leave and he may very well get his wish with the EU saying for the continued peace in Europe we must stop the UK leaving or we will go back to the old conflicts of WW1 and 2. Power hates letting go even if on the outside it seem benign. Personally I consider Lincon to be no better than the likes of the Palpatine. Just one more politician who did not want to give up power and used slavery as his cover.

Wow a lot of current politics thrown into this.

There is a lot of history of massive galaxy wide wars before the last Old Republic era (until the New Republic) in the Star Wars Universe. At least one of the Sith/Jedi conflicts seems to have depopulated the galaxy almost totally, with the Jedi using child soldiers to fight the Sith.

So the Republic, despite its many flaws is the system of government which has brought a time of 'peace' and stability. Splitting the Galaxy into two political blocks would logically to the Republic lead to a galaxy wide war, better to fight to keep the Republic strong and united rather than allow a separate state to be established and then have to fight a war anyway.

Also the Republic had fought wars to establish control of most of the galaxies trade routes, a new separatist state would threaten that control.

Kind of silly to discuss Star Wars in any logical way-- it was never meant to be that sort of story. You might as well have a political round table about Zombies of the Stratosphere. 8)=

The answer to the original question is "Because the script said so"…

For the life of me I can see no reason to favor the Republic. Google "Endor Holocaust" for one thing.
And then at the beginning when Luke is whining "But of course I hate the Empire!" on his hashtag do-gooder way…
Go cut sugar cane for Fidel! You mealy little twerp…

The Empire does not fall back on heredity. A man or woman EARNS their position.

Yeah, Lucas pretty much just uses trope terms to set up his good guys vs. bad guys plot. We're not told why the Empire is evil, nor why the Rebellion is good, nor why we should long for the days of the Republic. It's just assumed that of course an empire is bad and a republic is good and the Rebels are on the side of light and justice and fluffy kittens. We do see the Empire engage in evil acts, so that boosts the point, but we don't ever see what in the nature of the Empire led to the rebellion. If there is any actual repression of personal freedom or basic civil liberties, we never see it. Luke's life on Tatooine doesn't seem to be affected at all by the Empire, for good or ill, and Mos Eisley certainly seems to be a place of unregulated commerce and behavior, even with a contingent of Stormtroopers strutting about. Heck, people can freely and openly carry weapons, or conceal the same, if they prefer. Han's existence as a smuggler and claims to outrun Imperial cruisers imply some restrictions on interstellar trade, but what is being restricted and what he smuggles, we're never told. It might as well be highly addictive narcotics and heavy weapons, for all we're shown. So aside from the fact that the Empire is willing to do bad things to preserve itself, we never see any sign that of itself the system is particularly oppressive. In fact, in the prequels the Republic appears to be the morally questionable group with apparently rampant and unremarked slavery going on, the Hutt maintained as a despotic ruling class, and the Jedi acting as "frontier judges" able to convict, sentence, and execute suspects without trial.

Ironically, Lucas himself never seems to realize the implications of the systems he's created and labeled as "good" and "evil," even when he tries to make overtly political statements. Instead we get sloppy sophistry and logical fallacies put forth as "thoughtful axioms." ("Only a Sith speaks in absolutes!" Which statement therefore makes Obi Wan Kenobi a Sith. :-p)

So, in the end, Nazrat is correct: the reason they fight is because it says so in the script, not because it makes any sense.

Jedi don't free slaves either.
Nice ethnic stereotype for the insect who owns Anakin's mom, btw.

I've always stuck to the Clone Wars history suggested by Zahn in the Heirs to the Empire trilogy – the Clone Wars were against the clones, after the process proved unstable and led to individual acts of violence and then mass rebellions by one or more cloned generals (or possibly some sector politician with access to a clone factory). Kenobi's dialog in Ep. IV suggests that he was fighting the clones with Anakin Skywalker, not with the clones.

I think the fear (not very well stated in the movie, of course) is that if the CIS left and the Republic did nothing then every one else would jump ship as well, and not to the CIS but to their own regional/political/economic groups. Instead of one Republic keeping the peace (kinda) you'd have a dozen or more successor states with tons of reasons to go to war. If the Republic's raison d'etre is to promote galactic peace, trade, etc, then letting itself splinter obviously is counterproductive to achieving that goal.

-Will

If you read the Darth Bane series it goes into why the Jedi stopped being a force by themselves and started working for the Senate as advisers.

So it's basically the Senate that was controlling the events and not the Jedi. It's the Sith Lord Palpatine that is ultimately playing both sides without the Jedi knowing it.

The Empire does not fall back on heredity. A man or woman EARNS their position.

Though if you dont happen to be a member of the dominant Human species forget it.

Anybody else smell something nasty in the fact that both the Republic and later Imperial militaries are both entirely composed of Human or Human clones while the Seperatists are almost entirely alien?
The Empire is not exactly racist, more speciest.

To "Save the Union" (a.k.a: to aquire yet more power via a monopoly on force… insert manufactured and contradictory ideologies about 'freedom' and 'equality' as neccesary to make allies… after a while, with the aid of state-sponsored education, nobody will doubt the neccesity and justice of your war…)

To quote Palpatine: "Then we shall have Peace…"

All this is absolutely fascinating but it sounds rather complicated for the plot of a trilogy of films aimed at children and halfwits.

What I don't follow is why Lucas expected kids to cheer for the Republic and its clones and boo the separatists. It's not like the Separatists have blown up a planet and killed billions of people, like the Empire. All they seem to want to do is go their own way.

I seem to recall that, in AotC, Lucas wanted to leave Dooku's motivations unclear (recall the bit where he tried to recruit a captive Obi Wan with tales of a Dark Lord controlling the Republic?), but this plot device ended up on the cutting room floor.

It boils down to the Sith Code

Peace is a lie.
There is only passion.
Through passion I gain strength.
Through strength I gain power.
Through power I gain victory.
Through victory my chains are broken.
The Force shall set me free�.

Since the Sith Lord Palpatine controlled the senate, he couldn't let them go there own way because in doing so they might become as powerful as he had become. He couldn't let peace be achieved because peace is a lie.