"Possible Illustration of French troops C. 1522" Topic

Found this browsing around Druzhina's site
It was made in 1522 and depicts the French crusaders at Damietta in 1218 I think,
It looks as if it could be a possible representation of French soldiers of the Italian wars period, although some details seem more in line with Swiss/ German infantry of the period. What do you all think?

Here it is

Well one body of foot is clearly labled as "Suisses"=Swiss, the other body has a lable which seems to read "Austuries"=Asturians?

True can't believe I didn't see that.. I was a little exited

The armour and clothing depicted is contemporary for the time of the illustration was made. I.E. the early 16th century.

That's a very informative view of Spanish troops in the early 16th C. Thanks for that. (Swiss already look pretty much as established.)

It is from a latter edition of Bernhard von Breydenbach's Peregrinationes in Terram Sanctam

Druzhina
Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers

There is no evidence that the image accuratly portrays Spanish troops or that the artist even had seen Spanish soldiers. The image is a typical example of the artistic licence used by German woodcut artists who frequently depicted "foregin" western troops in Landsknecht dress and equor as here in a mix of landsknecht style clothing and "medieval" equipment. AFAIK the first images of Spanish troops that we know were made by an actual eyewitness are Vermeyens paints of the conquest of Tunis. (The paintings are superior in quality and detail to the tapestries even though not all of the paintings survive)
link

An earlier reference for the Spanish would be the taking of Oran by Juan de Borgona. Also I weould not say that the "medieval" equipment was erroneous for this date, quite the opposite.

De Borgona's Oran painting is interesting but I've never seen any evidence that he was an eyewitness to events and his style is also not the most realistic as far as the depiction of clothes and equipment is concerned.

"the other body has a lable which seems to read "Austuries" =Asturians?"

Not sure about that reading, I can't see a medial S in that word. Looks more like e with a tilde above it, possibly for "en". ("Tildes are very commonly used to indicate that ‘m' or ‘n' have been left out" – link )

Which would make the label something like "auenturies" – "aventuriers"?

Daniel, can't De Borgona's Oran painting be used as a general reference on the look of the early 1500s spanish soldiers? I mean, he lived in Spain since the 1490s, so he must have used the local soldiers he saw there as reference to his Oran painting…

Gurkhan,
Looking at the larger image found in Druzhinas link it could indeed be an e with a tilde but without a better view I would not consider it to be confirmed. But you certainly have me doubting my original interpretation. Question is of course why the printmaker would use the lable "aventuriers" given their poor repuation and status.

Don Sebastian,
The problem is the lack of information surrounding his work as well as the numerous odd and inaccurate details found in the painting. Just because the artist lived in Spain he need not use local soldiers as models for his work. He could just as easily copy other artwork or make the soldiers up from his (limited) knowledge of arms and armor. Paintings are not photos and need to be confirmed by other sources before they can be regarded as reliable.

I see, daniel. Could you point the inaccurate and dos details you found on the painting?

The 1522 edition of Peregrinationes is in French, translated by Nicole Le Huen. Paris [Higman or Couteau ?] for Fr. Regnault [the younger] 20 Mar. 1522 [-3]

Here is a detail of the French 'Aventuries' from Breydenbach, 1522

I read the label as Auē turíes, with an overscore, if not a tilde, over the 'e'. An abreviation marker common in Latin, but, used here in French.

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Images of Spanish & Moorish Soldiers in Conquest of Oran, 1509, painted by Juan de Borgoña, 1514

MIRROR SITES
French 'Aventuries' from Breydenbach, 1522
Spanish & Moorish Soldiers in Conquest of Oran, 1509, painted by Juan de Borgoña, 1514

Druzhina
Illustrations of Spanish Costume & Soldiers

I have found the woodcut of French Crusaders at Damietta, from Les Passaiges doultremer faitz par les Francoys by Sébastien Mamerot referred to in the note to the Breydenbach woodcut. I would call it another version rather than a copy as it does not have the same composition.

MIRROR SITE
French Crusaders at Damietta, from Les Passaiges doultremer faitz par les Francoys by Sébastien Mamerot

Druzhina
16th Century Illustrations of Costume & Soldiers