"when was gray to dunkelgelb/camo switch?" Topic

When did German vehicles switch from the gray to the dunkelgelb/camoflage scheme?

Did the 2 main schemes co-exist for long or did the gray disappear very quickly?

I think the "Official" date was Feb. 1, 1943.

I don't know how long they co-existed. I know I've seen photos of grey tanks cammo'd with yellow, but I don't know if any were still around by Kursk.

"HM 1943, no. 181 dated Feb 18, 1943 ordered the three color system, using the dark yellow as the base color." From Panzer Colors, volume one., page 52. Squadron/Signal publications.

Why was there chaos in the application of the new scheme? Front line units on the east front were a little bit busy fighting for their existence! Ammo, food, spare parts took priority over getting the large amounts of pigments required to fully carrying out the new scheme. Even the rear area repair shops only repainted over bare metal/new parts to protect them from the elements so that the repaired vehicles could be sent back into the fighting. So depending where in the world your German vehicles were and the supply of the paste paints determined how quickly things switched from gray to yellow. So units (individual vehicles) leaving the factory fairly early on in 43 (till the end of the war) were yellow based (Dunkelgelb)- if it was Panzer gray, chances it was an older vehicle. Not a simple answer so please pardon me when I tried to explain using a broad brush! />)

Hope this helps!

In addition, some tanks that were destined for North Africa were painted in those colors, but issued to units in South Russia/Ukraine. Also in 1942, camo colors were issued in tins, to be thinned with gasoline or water, and applied either by the vehicle crews or the maintenance shops. This included Dark Green, Red Brown, AND Dark Yellow.

Finally, consider the lifespan of combat equipment. After the Battle of Kursk, the Germans lost most of their armor on the Eastern front, so a Panzer Grey tank would be fairly rare. Combine this with tank overhauls, tanks returned for conversion into other vehicles/redeploy to other fronts, etc, I would say it would be pretty rare to see too many Pz grey tanks after summer of '43. Trucks and rear-area vehicles, however, would be a different story, as the rate of loss would not be as high…

Damon.

There are photos of 21. Panzer-Division AFVs, dated from July 1943, with (presumably) dark yellow camo slapped on over the original dark grey. In the Spring of 1944 the same units were photographed in all-over dark yellow.

Panzer gray would be rare to non-existent by the time of the Battle of Kursk in the summer of 1943. The most numerous German tank of that battle was PZIV-H's, with smaller numbers of Panthers and Tiger I's. Late variant PZIII's were command vehicles. Infantry support vehicles like the Stug III would also be the long barreled versions with the L/48 high velocity gun. These vehicles would all have been in base dunkelgelb fresh from the factory. However, Tamiya released a Tiger I (early) in grey which it claimed as late 1943 (see my comment in this previous thread): TMP link

It's possible I suppose given that Tiger I's manufactured earlier were likely to have survived well into 1943, but early German tanks like PZI's, PZII's, early PZIII's and short barreled Stug III's, and PZ38t's typically seen in panzer grey would likely have become 'extinct' or phased out by early to mid-1943.

Following on from Garand's comments. There is some colour footage of surrendering German units in 1945. Some of the military trucks are still dark grey.

So would 3 color camo vehicles be present at Stalingrad? Based on Garand's comment it would seem so…

I'm doing a Stalingrad project but it would be nice to use some of my 3 color camo vehicles if they wouldn't be out of place there.

All German material was grey at Stalingrad.

Yeah dark charcoley sorta burnt grey

Softskins were not required to be repainted unless they were assigned to front line combat units. Hence still lots of grey trucks, carts etc in 1945.

Also in 1945 there appears to have been use of old paints from stores.

Photos from 42 show lots of tanks camoflaged with mud.

There are photos of 21. Panzer-Division AFVs, dated from July 1943, with (presumably) dark yellow camo slapped on over the original dark grey. In the Spring of 1944 the same units were photographed in all-over dark yellow.

There are quite a few interesting examples of so-called "transitional" schemes with a range of colours field-applied in various combinations of disruptive patterns over base grey.

Also in 1945 there appears to have been use of old paints from stores.

I think the frequency with which this may (or may not) have occurred is still somewhat contentious…

I think the frequency with which this may (or may not) have occurred is still somewhat contentious…

Indeed. This idea may have originated from interpretation of B&W photos of tanks in a dark scheme. However, this may have been tanks painted in Dark Green as a base rather than Dark Yellow or (alleged) Dark Gray. Documentation of Dark Gray vehicles hasn't turned up AFAIK, other than Dk Gray can be used on a limited basis in emergencies. But there is plenty of documentation of a switch to Dark Green in the Spring of '45.

Damon.

I've seen a few, not many, pics of German tanks (well, I think everyone I have seen is a StuG actually) at Stalingrad that look pretty light. I would guess they are in yellow.

Hi idontbelieveit. I think what you may be seeing is winter whitewash camouflage over the grey.

I would say they started using como as they were forced to be defensive and need to hide.

Caucasus and Stalingrad were considered as desert by the Germans so all new equipment used in the Case Blue offensive should be painted in the 1942 desert scheme of  2/3rds Gelbbraun (RAL 8020) and 1/3rd Sandgrau (RAL 7027).
A good example is this 5th SS Pz III: