"Russian Guard Grenadiers at Austerlitz" Topic

Hi All

I have been looking at the Austerlitz OBs and am unsure about the Guard Grenadiers Regiment. Are they the Leib\Life Grenadier Regiment or are they the three Grenadier battalions of the Guard Regiments brigaded together under Lobanov?

Duffy, Bowden, Chandler, Castle all seem to have them listed as Guard Grenadiers while Goetz has them listed as Leib/Life Grenadiers and Nafziger as Leib Grenadiers. Hourtoulle seems to try and have it both ways as Grenadiers of the Guard or Corp Grenadiers. Napolun.com has them as Leib Grenadiers.

All have the three Guard Regiments with 2 battalions with some specifying Fusileers and Goetz giving 1st & 3rd battalions of the Regiments. Were the Grenadiers 1st battalion?

So what is it? :)

Also do the Fusileer battalions of the Guards have the Busch plume on their shako or no in 1805?

Ultimately I am looking to get these three battalions as a reserve and while I can easily pick one way or another I want to try to find out, if I can, the correct unit and therefore figures and flags.

Cheers

Pending Sasha's arrival with the complete answer, I suggest that the grenadier battalions under Lobanov are simply a temporary tactical expedient--think 'combined grenadiers', not an actual 'regiment'--drawn from the three Life Guard Infantry Regiments: Preobrazhensky, Semenovsky, & Izmailovsky.

On the Organization of the Russian Guard, see Mark Conrad's translation of Viskovatov, Section XII – link For uniform details, also according to Viskovatov, see link .

In general, for anything about Austerlitz in English, trusting the excellent and careful research of Mr. Goetz is likely the best idea.

It is the Life-Grenadier regiment. At the time, this was the senior regiment of the army, and not in the guard. In the Russian service, the "Life" designation was granted for excellence and carried with it the additional honor of having a member of the imperial family as the "shef" (a position something like commander-in-chief, patron or honorary colonel). In the case of the Life-Grenadiers, the shef was the imperor himself. The regiment was promoted to the guard on 13 April 1813 for excellence in the 1812 campaign.

Лейб-Гренадерский полк
- шеф император Александр Павлович
- командир генерал-майор Лобанов Василий Михайлович
- командующий подполковник Трофимов Василий Григорьевич

Leyb-Grenaderskiy polk / Life-Grenadier regiment
- shef imperator Aleksandr Pavlovich
- komandir general-mayor Lobanov Vasiliy Mikhaylovich
- komanduyushchiy podpolkovnik Trofimov Vasiliy Grigor'yevich

At Austerlitz, the regiment had all three battalions. Uniquely in the Russian army, all three battlaions were grenadier battalions – each with the usual 4 administrative companies or 8 tactical platoons, but all grenadiers. With the commander of the regiment detached to command a brigade of guard heavy infantry, it appears that the actual senior officer present was lieutenant-colonel Trofimov. As of November 1st (N.S.), the regiment reported 8 senior officers (majors and above – but not to include the shef, even if actually present), 46 company-grade officers, 154 nco's, 66 drummers and other muscians, 1860 grenadiers and 122 non-combatants (excluding officer's personal servant or batmen) "present under arms". Lieutenant-colonel Trofimov would have formed with the 1st battalion and each battalion would have had 2 majors.

1st grenadier company – lieutnant-colonel Trofimov
2nd grenadier company – a junior major
3rd grenadier company – a captain
4th grenadier company – a senior major

5th grenadier company – a senior major
6th grenadier company – a captain
7th grenadier company – a captain
8th grenadier company – a junior major

9th grenadier company – a senior major
10th grenadier company – a captain
11th grenadier company – a captain
12th grenadier company – a junior major

Arriving as the battle was already begun, the regiment's rτle was essntially in covering the retreat of guard infantry toward the closing stages of the battle. Losses were light. Only 76 other ranks (including 2 musicians and 1 non-combatant) were killed, mortally wounded, known to be prisonner, missing with no information, or wounded so badly that they would require discharge from active service (the Russian reporting category is interesting and useful : "irrecoverable losses"). It appears at first look that the regiment sustained no officer losses (in the Russian service, light wounds not requiring the officer to leave the ranks were typically not recorded for other than the most senior or socially prominent officers).

Distinctive were red for shoulder straps, collar, cuffs and the ranker's pompon center. The outside of the ranker's pompom was colored by battalion : white for the1st, yellow for the second, red for the third. Officers of the Leib-Grenadier regiment had gold aiguillettes on the right shoulder, as well as gold buttonhole loops on collar and cuffs. The men had white worsted buttonhole loops on collar and cuffs. All three battalions would have the grenade on the shako and the plumes. If you are going to try to paint the ranker's swordknot, the body of the swordknot was in battalion color, the slider and ruff in company colors : white for the 1st company, medium sky blue or azure for the 2nd company, yellow for the 3rd company and red for the 4th company.

Flags were of obr. 1797 type. The woodwork was straw-colored.
One "white" with the 1st battalion:

One "colored" with 1st battalion and two "colored" with each of the 2nd and 3rd battalions:

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Guard heavy infantry battalions were not only numbered, the senior battalion was further distinguished by the title "Лейб-батальон" / "Leyb-batal'on" / Life-battalion in the two senior regiments. All battalions were considered grenadier battalions, of which there were four in the Life-Guard Preobrazhenskiy regiment and three in the other regiments – with each battalion with the usual 4 administrative companies or 8 tactical platoons, but all grenadiers. It was the indeed the 1st and 3rd battalions of each regiment that were at Austerlitz. They were all classed as grenadiers, and they did indeed all have the plumes.

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It appears that the Russian guard infantry formed in 2 columns of all-arms at Austerlitz, one more than twice the size of the other. The follwoing is based on Russian sources, and differs from the organization found in most English and french accounts, which seem to trace to Austrian original materials.

1st guard column – great prince Konstantin Pavlovich
1st infantry brigade or line – general-major Depreradovich-1
-- 2 battalions Life-Guard Preobrazhenskiy regiment
-- 2 battlaions Life-Guard Semyonovskiy regiment
2nd infantry brigade or line – general-major Lobanov
-- 2 battalions Life-Guard Izmayloskiy regiment
-- Life-Guard Jδger battalion
cavalry brigade – general-lieutenant Kologrivov
-- 5 squadrons Life-Guard Horse regiment
-- 5 squadrons Hussar regiment
artillery brigade – general-major Kasperskiy
-- colonel Kostenetskiy's Life-Guard horse artillery company : 10 pieces
-- great prince Mikhail Pavlovich's Life-Guard battery artillery company : 10 pieces
-- 4 platoons from 2 different Life Guard light artillery companies : 8 pieces

2nd guard column – general-lieutenant Malyutin
-- 3 battalions Life-Grenadier rgiment
-- 5 squadrons Chevalier Guards regiment
-- 2 squadrons Life-Guard Cossack regiment
-- 6 platoons from 2 different Life Guard light artillery companies : 12 pieces

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Sources :
Life-Guard Izmayloskiy regimental history : dlib.rsl.ru/01003544962
Life-Grenadiers' regimental histories (in Russian) : dlib.rsl.ru/01003599830 and runivers.ru/lib/book4637 and http ://leb.nlr.ru/edoc/287536/История-Лейб-гвардии-Гренадерского-полка-Сост-прапорщик-Гребенщиков
Good article on the Russian guard at Austerlitz (in Russian) : link
See also the Viskovatov, as translated into English by Mr. Conrad : link and link
Also, Mr. GIngerich's summary of uniform distinctions : link
And for flags : link

- Sasha

Sasha that is fantastic thank you!

Wonderfully comprehensive.

A quick check of the Russian guard artillery "regimental" history (found here : e.bookza.org/book/1147146/dff145 ), gives the following information on the artillery of the 2nd guards column at Austerlitz – this would be the artillery in direct support of the Life-Grenadiers.

artillery commander : colonel Fyodor Ivanovich Resleyn
from colonel Resleyn's 2nd Life-Guard light artillery company
---- 2nd platoon : staff-captain Golubtsov : 2x 6-lber cannons
---- 3rd platoon : lieutenant prince Abamelik : 2x 12-lber unicorns
---- 4th platoon : lieutenant Fleisch : 2x 12-lber unicorns
---- 5th reserve platoon : sub-lieutenant Ragozin : 1x 6-lber cannon and 1x 12-lber unicorn
attached from general-major Kasperskiy's 1st Life-Guard light artillery company
---- 2nd platoon : lieutenant Svechin : 2x 6-lber cannons
---- 4th platoon : lieutenant baron Taube : 2x 12-lber unicorns

Total : 12 pieces (5x 6-lber guns and 7x 12-pounder unicorns)

So, this was not exactly the older "regimental artillery" of 2 battalion guns attached to each battalion. And it is also not exactly the later divisonal artillery brigade under the command of an artillery general with light artillery collected into light artillery companies of 12 pieces each under the command of a colonel. Instead it seems sort of part way on the evoluntion from the first method to the latter method.

Interesting, no ?

- Sasha

Having access to a Russian researcher like you, Sasha, makes me very tempted to start collecting for Austerlitz!

Lion,

Thanks a lot, but I am no researcher. I can just do a google search in Russian!
:-)
Anyway, the Russians are rather well documented, with more and more interesting details coming out of the various archives all the time, and they look kinda cool and are fun to play in my opinion.

One thing Russians are good at is making lots and lots of documents and reports, usually with several copies. So, even with invasions, revolutions, poor management, etc., etc. the details are usually "somewhere" awaiting discovery. Modern Russian academicians and local antiquarians have been very eager to dig out these details in an attempt to find real data to write Russian history without the need to pass an imperial or (even worse) soviet regime's censorship. Well, such has been their work in the last 20 years – and we might hope or pray that this will be allowed to continue in the years ahead.

- Sasha

I have started to collect Russians with the of the very nice AB range. 9 battalions and 2 Dragoon Regiments in and you certainly get to appreciate how smart an army the early Russian one is.

I will get the Leib Grenadiers for sure.

From a quation by the esteemed Mr. GIngerich found here : link

The names of the platoon commanders are found in a note at the bottom of page 88.

For the assignment of guns to platoons, I am interpolating/guessing a little.
The guard light companies were at the end of 1805 general-major Kasperskiy's 1st compnay and colonel Resleyn's 2nd company.
They were each composed of 5x platoons, each of 2 pieces.
They were each equipped with 5x 6-lber cannon and 5x 12-lber unicorns.

Judging by later usage, when the platoons were established with 2 identical pieces and what seemed to me to be common sense, I assumed/guessed that using identical pieces in each platoon would have been tactically preferred at this time. That would cause each company to have 2 platoons with 2x 6-lber cannon each, 2 platoons with 2x 12-lber unicorns each, and 1 platoon with 1x of each. In general, it sems that cannons take precedence over unicorns, so I rather arbitrarily assigned the cannons to the 1st and 2nd platoons, the unicorns to 3rd and 4th platoons and identifed the 5th platoon as the mixed one. Since the commanders of the platoons were in numbered order by seniority, this seemed reasonable.

The first platoon of Resleyn's 2nd company was known to be, exceptionally, operating 2x 1/2-pud unicorns with the Izmaylovskiy regiment, having swapped pieces with a platoon of еру путукфд graf Arakcheyev's guard battery company.

It could have been otherwise. We know that the Life-Guard Jδger battalion was allocated 2x 3-lber unicorns, a platoon which was actually to be composed in wartime of 1 piece from each of the two guard battery artillery companies. [Sidenote: I do not see mention in the Pototskiy that these pieces were employed in the Austerlitz campaign.] So, with this example, we might conceive of a swapping of pieces between the two guard light artillery companies to form, when on campaign, 5 platoons with 2x cannons each and 5 platoons with 2x unicorns each. This would fully employ the guard light artillery companies in providing 1 platoon to each of the 10 guard heavy infantry battalions. Indeed, I suppose this was the original intent of the graf Arakcheyev's orders of july 1805 whihc specified 10 pieces per company (see pages 60 ff. in the Pototskiy).

But I think that this kind of 1-to-1 assignment of platoons as battalion guns really did not happen, based on the description of how the platoons were actually assigned at Austerlitz. As noted before, I think we see at Austerlitz a sort of snapshot part-way on the evolution of Russian light artillery from their use as as individual platoons assigned as battalion guns toward their use grouped in larger formations under a dedeicated artillery command structure.

- Sasha

Gents.It started with the grenadiers but ended with artilery witch i am very greatful being an austerlitz freak greetings serge joe

Yes, back to the original thread:

Did all three guard infantry regiments wear shakos at Austerlitz? I seem to have an impression that at least one of the regiments was wearing miters.

TMP link

merde, now i will have to buy russians….

11th,

No reference to Guard infantry on that link, which is why I asked.

Will this help?

Paul :)

Not really, but very nice illustration.

I'm not great at finding things in Viskovatov, somehow the Russians have always befuddled me.

But in the early period, say 1805-07, what headgear did the three primary guard infantry regiments wear?

Seems to me I read somewhere that, perhaps earlier than this, Russian guard infantry had the Prussian style miter, with a comb crest worn sideways. I've got some 54mm Cheque made figures which include that headgear as an extra.

Then there were the conventional miters, as the Pavlovs are always wearing, then the tall shako with the bush plume, and finally the kiver. I've always wondered if Russian guards at Austerlitz were all wearing the same headgear, and what that headgear was?

Not 'Guards'-specific, but it shows the smaller mitres worn by the Fusiliers (middle of top row), in contrast to the taller Grenadier mitre (with pompon).

I do not know of any use of mitres by the Russian guards infantry in the 1805 and later years.

From December 1802, the guards heavy infantry had a sort of helmet in place of mitres.
Frm October 1803, the helmet was reserved for ceremonial occasions.
From March 1803, the helmet was abolished.
Otherwise they wore a shako, of the pattern established in February 1803 for grenadier regiments, but with the addition of a lacquered leather ring or hoop around the top edge, of the width and red color of the tape sewn on coats in the Life-Guards Preobrazhenskiy regiment. Plumes were as per army grenadiers. The rankers' pompoms were per the battalion : 1st – white outer edge, green center; 2nd – green outer edge, yellow center; 3rd – red outer edge, yellow center; 4th (in the Preobrazhenskiy regiment) – blue outer edge, white center. Noncombatant ranks had the same caps but without plumes.
listat.ru/T14/T14_31.htm
link
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link

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link

- Sasha