Tango01 | 23 Apr 2014 10:07 p.m. PST |
"As players we are used to rolling to beat a target number with our dice. What I've been looking into and using in my games recently is rolling dice to beat a difference between dice. So instead of rolling 14 on a d20 or higher you need to have a difference of 5 or higher between two d20s. How does this work and how does it affect the game? How does it work? Simply put the player rolls dice and the GM rolls dice. What matters is not the value each one rolls, but rather the difference between these rolls. To make a simple example lets play with d10s. A task has to be solved and the GM sets the difficulty at 5. To succeed the player and GM roll a d10. The difference between the rolls has to be 5 or greater to succeed. The odds for a d10 – d10 is the following:
" From here link Hope you enjoy!. Amicalement Armand |
MajorB | 24 Apr 2014 1:44 a.m. PST |
Stargrunt II uses opposing die rolls and has been around for a number of years. |
Stryderg | 24 Apr 2014 3:57 a.m. PST |
Same with War Engine, but it's a simple "who rolled higher", not "did you roll x higher than". Interesting, but don't know if it would much to a game. |
MajorB | 24 Apr 2014 4:35 a.m. PST |
Interesting, but don't know if it would much to a game. Opposed die rolls have the advantage of keeping both players actively involved in the game play. |
Florida Tory | 24 Apr 2014 4:48 a.m. PST |
Column, Line and Square has used opposing die rolls for melees since the early 1960s. A larger differential is needed to beat the more elite troop types. An individual line infantry figure, for example, is removed by a differential of one point, but it takes two to remove a grenadier, or four to remove a cuirassier. It takes more time to evaluate a melee, but it is the only system I've encountered that reliably can duplicate the result of a small elite unit hitting a large formation at a critical point and defeating it. Think of battles like Somosierra or Polotsk. The mechanic favors a good player who plays with boldness and iron nerve who maneuvers for an opponent's open flank. Rick |
Dynaman8789 | 24 Apr 2014 5:13 a.m. PST |
> Opposed die rolls have the advantage of keeping both players actively involved in the game play. Only if decisions are involved, I was a defender in an opposing DR situation and just rolling dice to roll dice is not what I consider being actively involved. |
MajorB | 24 Apr 2014 5:41 a.m. PST |
Only if decisions are involved, I was a defender in an opposing DR situation and just rolling dice to roll dice is not what I consider being actively involved. Why on earth would you need to roll dice in a game if a decision was not involved? |
Lupulus | 24 Apr 2014 5:58 a.m. PST |
Why on earth would you need to roll dice in a game if a decision was not involved? Exactly. So why would the defender want to roll the dice if that's his only input? He's not making any decisions, he's only acting as a static randomizer. |
thosmoss | 24 Apr 2014 6:15 a.m. PST |
Loved the opposed die rolling in Great Rail Wars. Unfortunately, a lot of that was streamlined out of the system by the time it grew into Savage Worlds, mostly to save time and speed up battle. The goal was to roll highest, and troop quality was reflected in rolling a die with more faces on it (d8 is better than a d6). The defender, after seeing the die results, had the choice to spend "fate" points to modify the die roll further if warranted (as could the attacker). Ended up being quite an entertaining system. |
Dynaman8789 | 24 Apr 2014 7:01 a.m. PST |
> Why on earth would you need to roll dice in a game if a decision was not involved? Plenty of games have that mechanic. I don't mind if there are not tens of rolls involved with multiple dice each time. |
MajorB | 24 Apr 2014 7:08 a.m. PST |
Exactly. So why would the defender want to roll the dice if that's his only input? He's not making any decisions, he's only acting as a static randomizer. In a typical opposed die roll, the attacker is rolling a die for his attack, the defender is rolling a die for his defence. Come on, as defender, do you really trust the attacker to roll your defence dice for you? Where's the fun in that? |
John the OFM | 24 Apr 2014 7:22 a.m. PST |
I don't think I have ever played in a game with them, but maybe I am just getting forgetful. |
elsyrsyn | 24 Apr 2014 8:10 a.m. PST |
Certainly nothing new. Doug |
Andy Skinner | 24 Apr 2014 8:20 a.m. PST |
If you don't like subtracting, you can get the same results by taking the minimum of the two. The sign of the difference can be determined by which die rolled lower or higher, and the amount of difference is the result of the lower die. I know subtracting is not hard, but this approach gives you the result on the die itself, which is nice. If you want to add a number to each side and have the difference between that number and the die, it gets more complicated. I had a system for doing it without subtracting or adding, but it was more complicated than subtracting or adding. ;) andy |
haywire | 24 Apr 2014 8:32 a.m. PST |
DP9s Silhouette systems uses opposed rolls that are modified by (defenders and attackers) Movement, Range, Weapon Accuracy, Skills, etc
I think they went a little too far with some of the mods. X-Wing uses opposing rolls with specialized attack dice and dodge dice. |
MajorB | 24 Apr 2014 9:17 a.m. PST |
If you don't like subtracting, you can get the same results by taking the minimum of the two. The sign of the difference can be determined by which die rolled lower or higher, and the amount of difference is the result of the lower die. So if I roll 2 D20s and they score 15 and 19 respectively, then according to your calculations, the difference is 15? By my calculation, the difference is 4 (19 – 15). Or have I missed something? |
Dynaman8789 | 24 Apr 2014 9:24 a.m. PST |
> By my calculation, the difference is 4 (19 – 15). Or have I missed something? You are thinking of it backwards. The winner is the one that rolls higher. The amount they won by is the the amount rolled by the lower roll. There is no subtraction involved. (to get the result you are thinking of you would need a roll of 4 and 19). To put it another way, if you are the losing DR it is "best" to roll as low as possible. |
MajorB | 24 Apr 2014 11:04 a.m. PST |
You are thinking of it backwards. The winner is the one that rolls higher. The amount they won by is the the amount rolled by the lower roll. Um
not according to the OP. To quote the OP: "How does it work? Simply put the player rolls dice and the GM rolls dice. What matters is not the value each one rolls, but rather the difference between these rolls. To make a simple example lets play with d10s. A task has to be solved and the GM sets the difficulty at 5. To succeed the player and GM roll a d10. The difference between the rolls has to be 5 or greater to succeed." Yes the higher score wins but only if they score the required difference or greater. |
Dynaman8789 | 24 Apr 2014 11:48 a.m. PST |
> Um
not according to the OP. According to Andy Skinner's it is. Since that is what I AND the poster I was responding to
|
MajorB | 24 Apr 2014 1:42 p.m. PST |
@Dynaman8789: You said:
The winner is the one that rolls higher. The OP said:
rolling dice to beat a difference between dice. Please explain how those two statements mean the same thing. |
Dynaman8789 | 24 Apr 2014 4:28 p.m. PST |
Bumsore, you have to be joking. You quoted Andy Skinner and I answered that. |
MajorB | 25 Apr 2014 3:12 a.m. PST |
Bumsore, you have to be joking. You quoted Andy Skinner and I answered that. Yes, I quoted Andy Skinner and said where I thought he was mistaken in response to the OP. You then appeared to support his argument? Or do you agree that Mr Skinner's analysis of the OP's dice mechanic is inaccurate? |
Parzival | 25 Apr 2014 9:17 a.m. PST |
Major Bumsore: I believe he's saying that they are two different mechanics and that Skinner's not suggesting that they're not, just that his mechanic has the simplicity of needing no subtraction. Both do give different results, but both ideas have results with more significance than just "who rolled higher." Skinner's idea is a perversely interesting mechanic, however, as you either want to roll high (to win) or, failing that, roll low if you've lost, to minimize the advantage of the win! So for opposed d20s, a 20 vs. 19 is the best result for the victor (who gets to use the value of 19 as his win), while 20 vs. 1 is the worst result for the victor (who only gets 1 as the value of his win). Unless of course, higher winning values are counter productive, as, say, the winning value has to remain under a target number to have effect. But I suspect that would get needlessly complex to the point of confusion. But opposed rolls with the difference determining the result are nothing new. That's pretty much the DBA system. |
MajorB | 25 Apr 2014 10:06 a.m. PST |
I believe he's saying that they are two different mechanics and that Skinner's not suggesting that they're not, just that his mechanic has the simplicity of needing no subtraction. Both do give different results, but both ideas have results with more significance than just "who rolled higher." You might be right. However, Mr. Skinner did say: If you don't like subtracting, you can get the same results by taking the minimum of the two. (my emphasis). I don't see how you can get the same results with two different mechanics. |