"That Game of Thrones Scene Wasn’t a ‘Turn-On,’ It Was Rape " Topic

"In last night's episode of Game of Thrones, the character Jaime Lannister rapes his sister and long-time lover, Cersei, beside the corpse of their dead son. As she repeatedly yells "no" and "stop," he tears off her clothes, pushes her to the ground, and says, "I don't care.

"This isn't the first rape scene in Game of Thrones—far from it. And there's been controversy over the show's use of rape before. But what makes this scene the most upsetting one yet is that the director didn't realize he was filming a rape scene. This is what Alex Graves told Alan Sepinwall over at Hitfix:

Well, it becomes consensual by the end, because anything for them ultimately results in a turn-on, especially a power struggle. Nobody really wanted to talk about what was going on between the two characters, so we had a rehearsal that was a blocking rehearsal. …Nikolaj (Coster-Waldau, who plays Jaime) came in and we just went through one physical progression and digression of what they went through, but also how to do it with only one hand, because it was Nikolaj. By the time you do that and you walk through it, the actors feel comfortable going home to think about it. The only other thing I did was that ordinarily, you rehearse the night before, and I wanted to rehearse that scene four days before, so that we could think about everything. And it worked out really well. That's one of my favorite scenes I've ever done…"
Full article here.
link

Amicalement
Armand

Yeah, it was rape. And it was NOT consensual at the end. Not the first time I watched it, and not the second time.
Martin has "complained but not complained" (he knows which side of the bread is buttered) that the scene was "different" from how he wrote it. Well, maybe by 10%.
Jaime's and Cersei's sex has always been a bit … different. Usually that is how it starts, but it ends "consensually". Not this time.

Jaime had ended Season 3 being a sympathetic character, if you ignore throwing Bran out the window, murdering his very likable cousin, and other dastardly deeds.
He is now back to being despicable. His book arc was headed towards more "goodness", but I think it has been derailed in the HBO series.
It will be interesting to see how the series handles the aftermath, or if they are just clueless. I think they are clueless, what with the director bragging about the scene.

I was thinking about Thomas Covenant in this regard. HIS rape was barely 30 pages into the book, and it made him so despicable, I just put the book down and never picked it up again. However, the Song of Ice and Fire is much more than Jaime, and his reversion came 4 years into the series, and did not happen EXACTLY that way in the books.

My reaction? I harrumphed "That is not how it was written, a tad bit … rougher."
I did wonder, and was not totally surprised when the the fan in the reviews on line Monday.

I will definitely keep watching it.

As much as I want to say something… I am just gonna sit this one out.

I like this article on the episode:

link

So for the writers and director of this episode of 'Game of Thrones' I pose a question…are you high?

Hit the nail on the head.

When I saw the episode, I actually thought I read the books wrong.

The scence mangles the complex Jamie/Cersai relationship. She is far more controling and uses sex as a weapon and means of control. Jamie is obssesed with her (and she knows it).

For a medieval women in her position – sex was one of the few weapons available. She uses it to get what she wants (which is everything). She often comments (in the books) she's a better man than Jamie.

I pity the fool the would actually (attempt) to rape Cersai. He'd be lucky to keep his memember or head.

They also put Jamie in terrible costumes…

TomT

I think that the context of the relationship between Jaime and Cersei is being missed by most commentators out in the web. The best thing that can be said about it is that it was/is treasonous (he was bonking the King's wife after all and sired an illegitimate heir to the throne). Then there is the incest and sexual power play between the two. I didn't think much either way about that scene. It just added to the warped nature of their relationship.

Man. One messed up show.

I have a feeling it was part of the shows attempt to redeem Cersei. They did it in season one with emphasising how Robert raped her, the problem is that being a rape survivor doesn't account for Cersei's viciousness. This was a stupid attempt because Cersei's stupidity and viciousness is unredeemable (Baelish is equally vicious but not stupid).

It annoyed me because I did enjoy Jaime's arc in the book and how he grew up and matured into an okay guy after his journey with Brienne (he "betrayed" Cersei, but that was by refusing to come save her from her own schemes, not by raping her).

Wow, the show is abusing the characters with more rapidity than the author. That's quite astonishing considering the amount of brutality that Georgey boy dishes out.

Maybe HBO is trying to outdo him?

Spoilers guys….not all of us have seen the episodes yet…

Indicative of the reason I gave up after two episodes.
Then again, I gave up half-way through book one.

Not my cuppa.

I think the problem is what Quaker said.

WARNING: more spoilers in here than a libertarian party convention.

Cersei was portrayed more sympathetically by Lena Headey. I think that was a missed opportunity for her (to be a delicious, over-the-top villain) but it is what it is. It had a side effect: how do you get her pushed over the edge to suddenly being the Bitch Queen of Westeros that we saw in AFfC? I think TVtropes calls this "rape as character development". So (they think) this gives her license to change significantly in time for the new season.

A Feast for Crows was out already when the show went into development. They knew this was coming. Patching it last-minute like this was sloppy. And above all the other problems, there goes the director saying the worst possible thing he could, "it was only rape at first." Next time, tweet "well, you can't blame Jaime considering what Cersei was wearing" and you'll invite less controversy.

This totally derails Jaime. He's supposed to arrive in King's Landing after Joffrey is dead, having already started his heel/face turn. This is where he tries to pick up where he left off, only to realize that Cersei has been using him, his love has lead him into being a villain, and for all his martial prowess, he's accomplished exactly nothing of note. He takes a long, hard look at his life, and part of it is becoming disillusioned with Cersei. Cersei has been sleeping around, doesn't really love him, and simply uses sex to control him just as she does others. It's a great moment for him, and gives him license to start changing his life.

That's been completely blown to hell. Now, Jaime and Cersei are more like Spike and Drusilla. Selfish, villainous, co-dependent, and totally unprincipled. In the tv show, he's every bit as bad as she is, perhaps worse since Lena is playing Cersei up a bit. Having had a chance to re-examine his life, he's back to being the Harkonnen heir. A turn after this, perhaps motivated by guilt over raping Cersei, would be totally different. It's a really fatal flaw.

This was an unforced error for the producers. There was no production or logistical reason why the plot as written wouldn't have worked on TV. It probably would have worked better. In the race for today's ratings, they are throwing away that long-term storytelling that builds real greatness in TV.

I agree Wellspring. This episode completely ruined the growth Jamie has shown over the last season. They should have stuck with the book on this one. I cant imagine what the producers could come up with that would be more suitable.

Jamie is not a good person and having not read the books. I thought his actions fit with how his character is in the tv show. He found himself on the losing side in the war and murdered the king and joined the winning side. He doesn't care about sleeping with the kings wife, even if its his sister. Gets caught naked with his sister/kings wife by a little boy. Toss him to his death with not a care in the world. Gets captured in battle, has no problem murdering his cousin, a fellow prisoner, to escape. Having his hand chopped off did humble him but it did NOT make him a good person. So I wasn't surprised at all that his sister was no longer sleeping with him, he'd rape her.

You've nailed it Wellspring. A total screwup on the part of the produces/writers. Perhaps this will at last wake up Mr. Martin and he'll insist on more control.

No Ironwolf they have completely ruined Jamie's character arc one of the most interesting and complex in the book (and in literature in general). They have forced him back into a 1D character because that is apparently all the producers can handle.

(They also initially messed up Drogo/Dany and then ignored their own problem and just steered back to the books so maybe they will just say "never mind" about this scence too.)

Ironically much of the problem stems from having Jamie return too soon to King's Landing. Martin spends a lot of time and re-writes on character/event sequence – its one of the reasons it takes so long to get a book out. Now we see the why and the consequences of sloppy timing.

TomT

The real travesty here, however, is not the scene or the poor character development or the departure from the book… it's the attitude of the director and producers regarding the scene. Seriously, do these guys not know such behavior is rape? Do they not know that it's vile and evil? I would advise any woman, especially any young actresses, to avoid ever being alone with any of these men (or, god forbid, a group of them). There is something wrong with their thinking, and the danger is how or if that might manifest itself in real life and not just on the screen.

Parzival… you know, on one hand I'd say you're over-reacting, but we've seen enough horror stories come out of Hollywood that I think you're absolutely right. (And the BBC for that matter.)

If any of you read the preview chapters from Winds of Winter, the Arya chapter inadvertently lampshades the smarminess and exploitation you see in Hollywood. A case of accidentally good timing.

I have no intention of allowing my kids anywhere near hollywood or, if I can manage it, theater production of any kind. I can see now why most cultures in history have been hostile to actors. Our culture is the most relentlessly entertained in history, and actors and celebrities given unbelievable (and undeserved) levels of respect. The effect has been absolutely toxic.

On another note, Ironwolf, I understand that many people are only watching the show, but you're missing a lot of what's going on by doing so. The book is very, very different in places, and the show tends to keep circling back to book plots, even the ones they've made clumsy by their prior re-interpreting. This scene is an egregious example of how not reading the books gives you a completely wildly different interpretation of events.

"The effect has been absolutely toxic." treating them like prostitutes was somehow better for culture?

Certainly not. But revering them almost as gods, or at least the new aristocracy, doesn't work either. They ought to be treated as exactly what they are; professional artists who are skilled at their chosen craft. Nothing more and nothing less. That is honor enough for anyone.