Maddaz111 | 15 Apr 2014 6:14 a.m. PST |
I was criticised last year for my comments about the show, but they were as said at the time my own personal opinion. I will comment that I was not going to attend this year, but I was involved in another event on Monday so was going to be in London on sunday.. so I only had to spring for a ninety pound hotel room for Saturday night
. umm! Anyway with a last minute hotel room booked, and too late to pre book tickets for salute.. I knew I was in for the long line of waiting
the Also Ran Queue. After negotiating the extended obstacle course of Excel – beyond the control of the organisers – but still a little annoying
I found a giant hallway where the two great queues were being assembled. After a long wait
the pre booked tickets started to go in
After a short while
more of the pre booked tickets were going in
Finally it was time for our queue to start moving. It was annoying to see people running past the queue to go straight in, and it was more annoying that when it was being pointed out to people wearing D-day Tees they ignored it. Eventually I got to pay to enter the gaming event. It still felt dark – still not enough light to see the displays clearly. some stall holders have equipped themselves with better lights
some still were in the dismal murky gloom. shopping experience this year felt better
as seemingly few of the stands were busy as last year, and those that were still over busy did not seem to be adjacent to another overbusy stand. fewer backpack related incidents
I did see a handful of people who walked backwards from stands straight into children, other adults, and chairs – I wonder why these people don't think about others and leave the huge rucksack at home, or book it in for a token fee somewhere
but common sense should prevail, and turning round slowly and walking in the direction of facing might be in order
(and if you are a grown adult and not doing this already.?.) The floor is still the cold hard unforgiving concrete. I have to say not the fault of the organisers, but a timely reminder to guests to bring sensible soft footwear
is in order. |
Maddaz111 | 15 Apr 2014 6:53 a.m. PST |
Anyway, after a leisurely walk around the periphery of the show, I tried to use the show guide to find trade stands that I wanted to visit. (note please use less ink next year so that we can see the labels on the map rather than them vanishing into colour coded blobs) After giving up on the show guide, I started randomly wandering up and down the rows, looking for items on my list, and updating as I bought them. I found the stall holders were generally friendly, and many were helpful in pointing out other companies that had things that they didn't have left
(this was still in the morning
so some companies either had miscalculated or had a very successful day already) After picking up five things on my list of seven items, and picking up two things speculatively (my defense
!) I began to feel a little peckish, and thought I would take the opportunity to partake in a small sandwich from one of the plaza vendors. ( all overpriced
all with at least a 30 deep queue
) again beyond control of the organisers
but salute picks the venue, and perhaps reminding the venue that overbooking the venue (with the cake show and the marathon, and something else all being on at the same time) might make the location less attractive. back inside, I took the opportunity of having an overpriced low cal pop and a cake bar (?) and took a short break on the plentiful seating that is a real plus point (+++) I felt somewhat refreshed, and took the opportunity to try and make sense of the show guide
and to look at my purchased wares
I realised after a few minutes of reflection that I had not noticed one game, so intent had I been in my shopping. I resolved to look for some of the much hyped display quality wargames. I found a number of displays, and many were diorama quality but few seemed to be games in progress. I was really impressed with Too Fat Lardies and the club that was running the battle of Keren (a large mountain to climb
. ) but many other large games seemed to be almost static displays. There were some excellent small scale participation skirmish games
but I do think gaming was again taking second place to spectacle. It still feels that a lot of the gaming is an afterthought to the sell! sell! sell! of the big manufacturers.
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GarrisonMiniatures | 15 Apr 2014 6:54 a.m. PST |
The lighting there is pretty bad. Seemed to be more participation games on this year. For some reason I seemed to like seeing the SoA game – perhaps the fact that they included a few Garrison figures had something to do with that. |
GarrisonMiniatures | 15 Apr 2014 6:57 a.m. PST |
On static games, there was that one with German WW1? troops goiung towards a village. no Allied troops on the board apart from (I think) one officer. Five hours later I didn't notice any change
. |
Maddaz111 | 15 Apr 2014 7:16 a.m. PST |
By early afternoon, the show had taken on that ambience that many gamers complain of.. the smell of sweaty gamer, and a slight lull seemed to have happened. I visited two more traders on my list, picking up three more items to cross off
I began to realise that the show was better than last year because whilst last year was a show with few new high profile releases, there were a great number of brand new products that were getting their first showing
and much ooh and Aah-ing was taking place, and many gamers were filling their sa-loot sacks with nice new items. There did seem to be lots of fantasy and SF – (not something I am really interested in
Honest ! )but at least there were some new historical things as well
disappointed with no bring and buy, but good use of space with better access to traders means its neither a negative or a positive overall. So overall. Quality of games (7.5 / 10) Quality and range of traders (10/10) Venue and facilities (4.5 / 10 ) (better queueing +, but too busy for plaza shops to cope – - ) assistance from D – Day Tee shirt volunteers (7.5/10) I am going to say that's a total of 29.5/40
or 7.3 / 10 overall
I am going to ignore the gossip within the club that has been reported in other posts and round up to 7.5 /10 But its only that good because some of the smaller traders went out of their way with show offers – I have to say I am still not impressed with re sellers having huge areas of the show stacked high and sold low to undercut manufacturers.. who are also present. |
Chokidar | 15 Apr 2014 7:34 a.m. PST |
Seriously.. who uses a phrase like "to partake in a small sandwich" ? |
Captain Cook | 15 Apr 2014 8:31 a.m. PST |
Re. Hard floor Wore comfy shoes and added memory foam insoles, result! I would have knocked at least a point off for this years lighting, or should I say lack of. |
Some Chicken | 15 Apr 2014 8:47 a.m. PST |
I have been going to Salute regularly since the Kensington town hall days and thought the 2014 incarnation was the least satisfying in years. It is difficult to put my finger on the reason why. Certainly the lighting didn't help, and generally there seemed to be fewer traders (or at least fewer traders selling stuff of interest to me) than last year, with little in the way of inspirational games to linger round. While the Keren game was certainly eye-catching, and Sword Beach was spectacular and then some, not much else gripped me. 6/10 at best in my view but I will hope for better next year. |
Who asked this joker | 15 Apr 2014 8:53 a.m. PST |
It sounds like an expensive shopping trip really. Most (all?) American shows have a plethora of what you call participation games of all types (skirmish to mass combat) and genres (Fantasy/Sci-fi/Historical). What type of venue is the Excel Center? Is it a convention center or an arena? I could definitely see lighting being an issue in these sorts of venues because you want the audience to be sitting in relative darkness while the presenter is well lit. So general lighting does not have to be all that great. |
jameshammyhamilton | 15 Apr 2014 9:25 a.m. PST |
Excel is the main Exhibition centre for London. The thing is though that at the vast majority of exhibitions lighting is put on the individual stands by exhibitors. A Wargames show is not a major trade show, vendors do not have big expensive well lit stands and rely on the background lighting which to be honest at venues like this is not exactly great. |
Von Trinkenessen | 15 Apr 2014 10:34 a.m. PST |
Joker its a zeppelin hanger!! |
Cerdic | 15 Apr 2014 11:24 a.m. PST |
One of the problems for a show like Salute at Excel is that the exhibition centre is aimed at large commercial shows. These sort of people have their own mega-money stands, lighting etc. For example, a few years ago I went to a motor show at Excel. It occupied the ENTIRE building, including some of the outside areas. It looked brilliant. There was carpets and funky lighting and music and stuff all over the place. All the things that people complain about the lack of at Salute. But the difference is that the Warlords total budget probably wouldn't cover Ford's coffee bill! The solution would be, of course, to find a different venue. But where else has that kind of capacity? And if there is an alternative, would that not have the same issues? Me, I'm just happy to be able to see some inspirational games and browse so many trade stands a shortish distance from where I live! |
JezEger | 15 Apr 2014 11:34 a.m. PST |
We had a similar situation with lighting when some accountants realised we could save $x a year be reducing costs. This meant that I had jewellery displays etc in semi darkness, but as revenue was a different cost centre to bottom line costs, nobody cared. The solution was to get simple spots from somewhere like Ikea and use local lighting, doesn't have to be expensive. It would probably be worth a regular show attending trader to have such a set up ready just in case. The other issue may be that nothing electrical can be set up in a venue without prior approval because of fire risk, but that should be a simple process to set up in advance. |
MajorB | 15 Apr 2014 11:42 a.m. PST |
It sounds like an expensive shopping trip really. Yes it is a shopping trip, but UK shows are the only time you get to see the goodies "in the flesh" (so to speak) and get to talk to the traders directly. Most (all?) American shows have a plethora of what you call participation games of all types (skirmish to mass combat) and genres (Fantasy/Sci-fi/Historical). Not quite. What we call participation games are short, fun games with specially wriiten or ruthlessly cut down rules that only run for an hour or so (90 minutes absolute max.). You need to remember that Salute is only actually open for SEVEN hours! What you call participation games usually run for 3 or 4 hours
What type of venue is the Excel Center? Is it a convention center or an arena? Neither. It's an exhibition centre basically a huge warehouse. The poor lighting is because for most exhibitions that run there the exhibitors bring their own lighting. |
Rapier Miniatures | 15 Apr 2014 12:13 p.m. PST |
JezEger, that would be fine, except the rental for a power socket to run them costs you an arm and half a leg
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Timmo uk | 15 Apr 2014 12:21 p.m. PST |
@Cedric "The solution would be, of course, to find a different venue. But where else has that kind of capacity? And if there is an alternative, would that not have the same issues?" There is an alternative: link I've been to model railway shows there and it is a whole lot nicer than ExCel. I have no idea how they compare price wise. |
Paul B | 15 Apr 2014 12:56 p.m. PST |
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Trajanus | 15 Apr 2014 1:03 p.m. PST |
perhaps reminding the venue that overbooking the venue (with the cake show and the marathon, and something else all being on at the same time) might make the location less attractive. Yeah, like Excel gives a toss! As far as they are concerned there is no such thing as overbooking. Salute is a once a year event for weirdos that takes some space off their hands – its peanuts! |
Trajanus | 15 Apr 2014 1:06 p.m. PST |
Timmo, Well Alexandra Place would certainly solve the gripes about Car Parking charges. As I recall there is no car parking! |
Dark Knights And Bloody Dawns | 15 Apr 2014 1:23 p.m. PST |
There is a heap load of car parking at Alexandra Palace located at the bottom of the hill near the Muswell Hill entrance. |
Maddaz111 | 15 Apr 2014 2:36 p.m. PST |
If I want a quality show near to where I live
I go to triples
Salute is a two day trip really for me
|
Lardie the Great | 15 Apr 2014 3:17 p.m. PST |
Thing is Excel could take even more shows at the same time, the empty hall for the queue showed that. Personally I preferred waiting there rather than the concourse as it was a lot cooler, I'd hoped the doors were opening at 9:45 for the ticket holders (sure I read that somewhere, but it may have been wishful thinking) but once the line started moving got in 15 mins. It was or seemed darker than last year and didn't seem to have the same positive buzz as last year, but that is just my perception. Will I go again ? damn right I will, even though that means getting up at 5 o'clock, spending £42.00 GBP before a single shiney mini is bought. You don't get that mix of traders anywhere else in the country, another observation was that there were more international traders than ever before, maybe a Warlord could confirm that. All things considered it was a very successful show. |
tuscaloosa | 15 Apr 2014 3:43 p.m. PST |
I've never understood this European thing with having "display" games. I don't want to attend a con to see other clubs playing with the same people they play with all year round, I want to play with new players and/or new ref's running games I am not familiar with. |
BigRedBat | 15 Apr 2014 3:46 p.m. PST |
"There is a heap load of car parking at Alexandra Palace located at the bottom of the hill near the Muswell Hill entrance." Not outside my house please, Nigel! ;-) The Alexandra Palace venue owns huge car parks down the hill on the North side; these can take hundreds of cars. Free, too
I had a great day, though, on Saturday at Excel. Met tons of mates, no stress at all, loads of fun. |
Brian Smaller | 15 Apr 2014 9:05 p.m. PST |
I would still love to visit Salute despite all that. Better buy a lotto ticket tonight :) |
Tin Soldier Man | 15 Apr 2014 10:50 p.m. PST |
The quality if the games you see at UK shows is very significantly higher than what you'll see at a US convention. They are more inspirational moving dioramas than actual games. Most US games would be viewed with horror at a UK show. |
Pete Melvin | 16 Apr 2014 2:40 a.m. PST |
I don't believe that most ofthe games were "display" games. I reckon its more likely that many British people are probably not bolshy enough to just say "Can I have a game?!" It was VERY dark in there this year I thought. There was far too much space taken up with lanes and byways, resulting in some of the stands being cramped and near impossible to navigate (Gripping Beast for examples) Backback attacks were down this year, although one of my friends did have to threaten to lump a neckbeard after one too many backpack attacks. |
John Treadaway | 16 Apr 2014 4:29 a.m. PST |
Pete As ever, there were a lot of party games running at the show. Pelennor Fields was one such but first thing it's always hard to attract gamers as there is so much more to see and shop at Salute that not suprisingly people want to run around and get and see stuff to get their entry money's worth. I don't know what the ratio was this year to be frank I haven't checked the programme but the ratio of demos to partys is usually about evenly split. That means there was maybe the best part of 50 party games in the room. If people want to play them or not especially if the period or style doesn't appeal that's another thing, sure. That meant that come lunch time at Pelennor Fields we started getting people who actually wanted to play rather than just watch and/or take pics (both of which are nice and welcome). I rubbed my throat raw doing the 'meet and greet' ("Hi: is there anything I can tell you about the game? System we're using? Figures? Scenery? Background, even?
") which is in my opinion a full time job for a party AND a demo game but it's what makes a nice looking Party game into a display/demo game as well. On that note, the background noise at any show is always hard to overcome: at ExCel with the hard floors, shed roof and 6000 people, it becomes a losing match between my vocal chords and the volume I can speak at. I don't know what a "neckbeard" is
John T |
legatushedlius | 16 Apr 2014 4:50 a.m. PST |
Agree on the lighting. ExCeL are more worried about their green credentials, though. They have saved nearly 75% on their lighting costs over the last few years by switching to less powerful bulbs. The floor. Standard cost for carpet hire for a London exhibition venue is from about £6.00 GBP per square metre per day. Salute occupies about 14,000 square metres so that would be over £80,000.00 GBP just to provide carpet. I don't think the Warlords, an amateur wargames club after all, will be able to stump up for that! |
Pete Melvin | 16 Apr 2014 6:02 a.m. PST |
John Don't get me wrong, I think the games, no matter what their level of participation were all masterful. I'm a member of the Phoneix Gaming Club of Rushden and we do public participation games every year at Kelmarsh festival of history* so I know how much blood, sweat and tears (and styrofoam, paint and arguements) goes into these things. What little point I had was pretty much what you said; the games organisers have to do the "come and play!" thing, rarely do people come and ask to play.** A neckbeard is a stereotypical wargamer. No hygiene, no social skills, orc like stance, backpack with no sense of how large it is and a scale breaking weight. Its original intent was an insult but I think the "community" has attempted to take it back, as it were. *Come and enjoy our WW2, Napoleonic, Roman Britain and WW1 participation games this year! I'll be running the WW1 game, look for the angry looking Scottish chap. **at least in my experience, but most of the people we interact with at shows are general public members and not actual wargamers. The Soviet and German re-enactors we got last year to play their respective sides were really into it however. |
Zargon | 16 Apr 2014 9:32 a.m. PST |
The winning remark about it all was Chokidar. Luv it mate :) Been to Salute 2011 (life time ambition _ bucket list thing, was in gamer shock/heaven. Didn't have enough time or money would I break the piggy bank again to go? Not sure perhaps some other show. Bought the ticket on line and got my moneys worth. In before the flimflam got a goodies bag and felt right special. Moral here if you can get the online booked it really did make it easier. |