"What fantasy rules are prevalent? " Topic

hey guys,
Ive never really been one for fantasy gaming, neither for anything pre horse and musket, but suddenly i find myself with the "itch"
I was wondering what fantasy rules are pretty good… I will say I prefer games without figure removal like hail caesar.
I already have purchased Mayhem, Rally Round the King and I have the Hail Caesar fantasy rules.
I would prefer army level rules, as I think I know what skirmish rules I like.
If you could give me a quick "what and why" I would appreciate it
thanks
~Joe

Warmaster are some of the best rules out there. So much so that they have inspired dozens of games since, including Hail Caeser, Black Powder, etc, and the Blitzkrieg Commander/CWC/FWC series.

To be a little more specific-
They meet your army level desire
They use units of 1-3 stands rather then figure removal
After a couple turns the rules become rather second nature and don't require much reference during games.

I'd agree on Warmaster, but having 5+ armies, I'm a bit biased.

If you've played Black Powder, you'll probably be already familiar with about 50% of the rules.

I like them because at the 10mm size, it's easy to make things look like a huge sweeping battle, without taking up way too much room.

I also like the uncertain command & control, sometimes rolling well & being able to make a big push with a number of units, but other times, rolling badly & not being able to move anything.

Since the Warmaster Ancients rules are a bit more "realistic", we play with our Fantasy army using the Ancient rules, & then just add the missing rules to it from Warmaster Fantasy like Magic & Flying Units.

The most prevalent rules are Warhammer, but (1) they use figure removal and are otherwise kind of old school, and (2) these rules potentially subject you to GW's arbitrary support of the rules and fluff (and fanbase). Armies of Arcana is also figure-removal based but is designed with better mechanics than Warhammer, and has been used by many dissatisfied with WFB. I am not sure about Kings of War by Mantic Games on its mechancs, but it has likewise been looked at by disenchanted Warhammer players.

I am a fan of Piquet and am very fond of Hostile Realms, the Piquet/Field of Battle-based fantasy system. It uses 4-stand units and Piquet mechanics, but has nice rules for spells, heroes, and magic items--not as many as Warhammer, but far more than most other systems.

Hordes of the Things is the DBx fantasy set and is quite popular with historical players, but for me it has very little fantasy flavor--no spells, no real heroes, no magic items. It is basically DBx with slightly special rules for large beasties compared to spearmen. A good set for BIG fantasy battles, though.

Warmaster is a interesting idea, being stand-based without figure removal yet a set designed by and from true fantasy rules.

You need to ask yourself how important it is to have specific and flavorful rules for spells, for heroes, and for magic items. Neither HoTT nor the historical spinoffs really have any of these. But if what you want are a set of rules that just allow you to have Ogres fight hoplites, then you have more options.

Kings of War (Mantic) core rules and army lists are available for free download. IMO they work well for a range of periods from ancients to musket and rifle but are written for fantasy. The army lists are generic and cover most standard tropes to include WFB armies.

They are designed for large scale fights ala Warmaster. For example, your movement tray/unit never loses any models. Casualties are tracked via tokens or a simple note on your army roster. Once a unit takes so much damage it will eventually fail its morale (Nerve) check and disappear altogether.

Easy Army also has an army builder available for free as well.

PDF link

link

kow.easyarmy.com

If you are using HC already, we have ported over much of the Warmaster fantasy rules – these are available of the Hail Caesar Fantasy yahoo group.

I have had a play with Mayhem and it has some really nice ideas, the combat resolution didn't really work for us though.

Warmaster while interesting, shows it's age – the rules are very fiddly (compared to HC for example). It's playing base is around 10mm figures.

KoW is a good option – it is somewhat chess like in playing style, which some people really don't like.

Warmaster while interesting, shows it's age

Yes, as rules get older they stop working… eventually become altogether unplayable. Just. Won't. Work.

Sorry, I've got a pet peeve against the much-stated idea of rules 'aging' or that newer rules are somehow 'evolved'. There are personal tastes and the tastes of the crowd, they change, they cycle and swing around… the current taste just happens to be for fast and simple.
Why not just say Warmaster is more fiddly than HC? Some folks LIKE fiddly rules!

Mayhem is a really great ruleset. Warmaster works really well unless you like some power over your units – which I am guilty of – in which case it might "get your goat". Other than that, it's a fun system.

We have a chap who has expressed interest in developing a fantasy supplement for Warlord Games' Hail Caesar too – though I have something of a yen to do the full-on version myself one day – well you're never too old!

Casualty removal seems to have fallen out of fashion – otherwise there does seem to be a revival of interest in Warhammer 3rd – now we're really talking fiddly – under the guise of the 'Oldhammer' community.

I've just downloaded a copy of the old WRG Ancient rules with the fantasy appendix – must be getting on for forty years old – they'll probably only work with Minifigs Mythical Earth range and Der Kriegspielers though:)

Yeah, I've been on a Warhammer 3rd kick for the past couple years and now I'm looking to try some other 'old' games. I like details like baggage trains and mercenaries that can be bribed into switching sides. Now that I have a table I can leave battles set up on it's no big deal if a game moves a bit slowly.

A few things about Warmaster:

1) Created by GW

2) Stopped being supported by GW – but that is what GW does.

3) If you don't kill that large 6 wound/hit creature in one round of combat, well it regains all of its wounds/hits back.

4) Created by GW that should be warning enough.

For what it's worth, I'm going to be using Mighty Armies. Mayhem has also looked interesting, but I'm giving MA first go.

A Warmaster fan here as well. Honestly I prefer these rules because I find them less fiddly than others! I also like that while you do have "force control", it's not perfect, and things can mushroom quickly in a single turn as combat sets off more combat in rapid order. I also agree that it has the "grand sweeping battle" feel that single-figure units and larger scale units tend to lack. A 10mm (or 6mm) force certainly looks more like a battle to my eye than smattering of 28mm figures.

If you can find them, the Battle of Five Armies version of the Warmaster rules is my favored book. It contains edits and corrections to the original system, and the Middle-Earth setting actually offers greater potential as a generic system than the original, which is set in GW's Old World milieu from Warhammer. I use both to create concepts for armies and creatures not listed in either set; it's not that hard to do, if you remember to minimize "special" rules so as to avoid making things too powerful. Going for flavor is more important than going for power.

I would also suggest mantics kings of war as it is still an itch. The rules are free and you canny beat that .
If you really like the rules and need more depth you can move on or just stay put .

A few things about Warmaster:

1) Created by GW

2) Stopped being supported by GW – but that is what GW does.

3) If you don't kill that large 6 wound/hit creature in one round of combat, well it regains all of its wounds/hits back.

4) Created by GW that should be warning enough.

Oh, give it a rest. It's a game. It happens to be a good one, no matter who made it. And "no longer supported" merely means they don't sell the figs or the rules anymore. The rules haven't changed significantly from the initial printing (some minor errata) and are easy to find copies of. There were never any codexes or extra rules to buy, nor any new editions (nor any need for them). So the rules aren't broken, there's no conflict on what's "official." and there are plenty of 10mm figure substitutes out there for producing just about any force you want, if you can't find the original GW models on eBay. Kallistra, Copplestone, Eureka, Magister Militum, Minifigs, and a bunch of others, which get mentioned here regularly. So who needs "support" from GW? Find the rules, paint some figs, grab some dice, and play.

If you want to go with army level, I would give Hordes of the Things (some of us have updated it with the latest DBA 3.0 rules) a try. Its easy to customize and add more stuff if you want but often gives a better feel for fantasy battles than the big fluff messes like Warhammer.

I've played both Hordes and Warmaster and much prefer Hordes.

Hello Rick, the reason Warhammer 3rd is making a comeback, is Warhammer 8th edition – quite terrible after 20 years of playing I've had to put my Warhammer armies away.

TomT

Armies of Arcana probably deserves a nod as well, especially if you prefer your figures single-based so they're more easily used for other skirmish or roleplaying games when you aren't army-bashing.

link

Chester, I know GW might have hurt you in the past but it's time to let it go. The pain will subside. Picture an ocean. See yourself tossing your pain into the ocean. Just let it go…let it go. Good. Now deep cleansing breaths…

---------

If you want to try Warmaster, go to my blog to download counters for all the armies. You can play WM in any scale using any miniatures. You can also create your own armies using the simple stat rules.

There are no uber creatures in the game that I know of. Every powerful thing has a trade off, usually in points or special rules. No Vortex Grenades in it. :-)

I honestly prefer the push you luck order system in WM over Black Powder, which has more rules. I can teach WM quickly, but its cousins take more effort.

But different folks like different things. It's all good.

ordinarygaming.blogspot.com

Pride of Lions has gotten some play at our local game shop. here is a review on TMP by one of our fellow gamers: TMP link

and for the anger at GW, try this: YouTube link

I like Warhammer Fantasy Battle 3rd Edition because of all the rules and fluff.

Much more information about Hostile Realms, if interested, can be found here:

link

Peter

(rules author)

Another set of rules which meets your criteria is Fantasy Rules! 3 by Chipco games. The FR!3 TCE version is a slightly trimmed down version but still very good and preferred by a lot of people. Morale clock is a fantastic system. A base is a unit so its flexible on the no of figures.

I like hott, didn't enjoy warmaster.
I'm currently designing a fantasy ruleset of my own.
Nobody has mentioned the fan developed expansion for impetus. Basic impetus fantasticus is worth considering.
You can download impetus lite for free, and the fantasy mod is also free.

Incidentally, prevalent doesn't mean good.
Wfb isn't very good imo.
Sorry rick.

PRIDE OF LIONS is for gamers who want armies of 10-12 units totaling 150-200 miniatures, fighting on a typically sized table (e.g. 4x6 in 15mm). If you want smaller armies on a smaller table I recommend MIGHTY ARMIES.

PRIDE's magic systems -- there are four or five depending on how you count -- are complex enough to be a subgame if you want that, though play can be simplified easily. Characters have important roles in command and morale, but are not powerful units in themselves as has sometimes been true in, e.g., WH.

Battles in PRIDE (and MA as well) will generally be decided by the clash of main battle lines, as opposed to "sniping" at isolated units to get a morale advantage (my main objection to FR! which is in most respects an excellent rules set).

So it really depends on what kind of game you want to play -- there's lots of choice out there.

I've been enjoying mayhem quite abit lately. Easy to build any unit you'd like, nice command mechanics, and easily scalable for small to really large games.

I also have a fondness for warmaster. For smaller quicker games the "skirmish" variant is a lot of fun.

link

Yes, forgot Pride is an option if I get to the happy stage of having enough units available to try some really big battles.

I will also throw in another vote for Kings Of War. You can't beat free rules and army lists. Give it a shot, since you really have nothing to lose.

Warmaster while interesting, shows it's age

Yes, as rules get older they stop working… eventually become altogether unplayable. Just. Won't. Work.
Sorry, I've got a pet peeve against the much-stated idea of rules 'aging' or that newer rules are somehow 'evolved'. There are personal tastes and the tastes of the crowd, they change, they cycle and swing around… the current taste just happens to be for fast and simple.
Why not just say Warmaster is more fiddly than HC? Some folks LIKE fiddly rules!

Its not just that WM is more fiddly than HC.

Comparing WM to WMA makes WM seem like the earlier version it is – I might have to have a proper look at the BoFA rules, as we never really bothered with them as we saw them as essentially the same as WM.

Reading postings on the WM forums, it is clear that the same issues keep cropping up as new people play the rules. There are parts of the rules that are less than clear, there are parts that really don't work too well.
WMA is clearly an evolution of WM, and it improves many areas – unfortunately it didn't add Fantasy elements.

No but many play WMA for the combat rules and play with the rest of WM for the balance of the fantasy rules.

Basic Impetus has a free fantasy version.

'Evolution' does not equal 'improvement'… just saying.
If the rules have problems now then they had those same problems when they first came out… they didn't get worse with age.
My gripe lies with the language… 'evolution' and 'showing their age' not the idea that rules can be rewritten and improved.

We are playing Warmaster, BOFA and WA using HC command and movement rules.