Whirlwind | 12 Apr 2014 4:16 a.m. PST |
As far as it is possible to eliminate the fluff from the crunch, what is the best set of rules for crunch alone? Or to put it another way, if I were to use a WH40K edition for non WH40K battles, which would be the best to use? Regards |
Agent Smith | 12 Apr 2014 4:28 a.m. PST |
Rogue trader or 1st edition as it is now known Troop and everything else is buildable and pointable. Just stick to the main rulebook though. Glen
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Pictors Studio | 12 Apr 2014 4:30 a.m. PST |
It depends what scale you want. If you want big battles I would go with 3.0. The rules were simple, not bogged down with special crap and, if you are making up your own stats for stuff, won't devolve into HtH combat if you don't want it to. Honestly though anything 3.0 and after are pretty similar so it probably doesn't matter much until you get to the current edition which is different. If you are going for smaller scale, like 20-30 models a side i would go with 2.0. It has a lot of stuff in it, like overwatch, that make it more realistic as a straight up sci-fi game rather than a sci-fantasy game. |
Space Monkey | 12 Apr 2014 4:51 a.m. PST |
I'd say Rogue Trader
with maybe a few borrowings from 2nd. RT has the setting but it's so wide open along with the rules that it's pretty much 'generic' as is
like I could easily see doing Star Wars or Dune or Traveller scenarios with it. As we've played it over the years there've been many more street gang/Judge Dredd and space pirate outings than there have anything featuring Space Marines or Orks (though I've gone solidy Orky of late). |
Dr Mathias | 12 Apr 2014 4:53 a.m. PST |
Rogue Trader was the most fluff independent, and most people that played it pretty much have the understanding they can do whatever they want with it. I liked 2nd and third too, although by third it felt harder to design scenarios and the army size gets bigger. |
doc mcb | 12 Apr 2014 6:27 a.m. PST |
No snark intended here -- I've never played 40K nor read the rules, though I have enjoyed Warhammer a few times -- but my impression just from seeing games at cons and at game stores is that 40K fills up the table with minis and combat happens at very close ranges? I just have trouble envisioning that as sic/fi combat where ranges and lethality would both be very great. Or am I missing something? |
Dr Mathias | 12 Apr 2014 6:38 a.m. PST |
When we played Rogue Trader there was almost no melee and ranges were a bit longer in general. Auto cannon were 72" and now they are 48" if I recall correctly. |
Todd636 | 12 Apr 2014 6:39 a.m. PST |
I always wondered how any race in the 40K world survived and advanced. They have ships that can get them from planet to planet. They have plasma pistol and lasguns. But when it comes to hand to hand combat, which it seems they prefer, they go in with chain saws and power fist. |
darthfozzywig | 12 Apr 2014 7:39 a.m. PST |
But when it comes to hand to hand combat, which it seems they prefer, they go in with chain saws and power fist. Because Dune. :) |
Dr Mathias | 12 Apr 2014 8:17 a.m. PST |
Because Dune. :) That's the best answer to that :) And Nemesis the Warlock ;) |
The Beast Rampant | 12 Apr 2014 8:44 a.m. PST |
You might also consider (1st Edition Epic) Space Marine. It was really much too crunchy for its intended playscale, but IMO, much more elegant than the much streamlined/simplified WH40K 3rd +. I have long been considering using it for my 15mm space opera system, whenever it get around to it. |
Pictors Studio | 12 Apr 2014 6:36 p.m. PST |
I think what you are missing is that 40K is not intended to be a sci-fi ruleset but a sci-fantasy ruleset. I don't hear any of these complaints about Star Wars. People have laser guns and yet the toughest guys in the galaxy are the ones running around with laser swords. In medieval times they had bows and crossbows which could kill people from pretty far away but they still went in with swords and maces and spears. In ancient times they had slings and bows and javelins but they still went in with spears. Why? Because killing was so much more effective with the defensive tech they had. Same in 40K. I'd wager that a fight between Tau and IG in 40K would see much less close combat than a game between anything and space marines/chaos space marines or anything and tyranids. It just isn't that effective to shoot marines with lasguns. Just like it wasn't that effective to shoot people in bronze armor with a large shield with bows. The marines get in close because it is a very effective way to kill the enemy quickly. |
Ethanjt21 | 13 Apr 2014 7:23 a.m. PST |
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doc mcb | 13 Apr 2014 1:08 p.m. PST |
Or, alternately, a lot of the interstellar races are nearsighted. |
Legion 4 | 14 Apr 2014 9:58 a.m. PST |
"Best Version of WH40K as Generic SF Rules"
was there ever such a thing ? GW's annoying predilection of a close combat based rule system. As mentioned already
Where hi-tech soldiers are most effective when using their ranged weapons as clubs as opposed to shooting
and carrying swords ?!?!? But as already noted, the 1st ed. of Epic Space Marine was a much better set of rules. And thought it would be good for 40K scale. And we liked very much for Epic scale as well
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Mithmee | 14 Apr 2014 5:49 p.m. PST |
It just isn't that effective to shoot marines with lasguns. Depends on just how many Imperial Guardsmen you have shooting. Just like it wasn't that effective to shoot people in bronze armor with a large shield with bows. Try asking the French at Agincourt if shooting bows can be effective against heavy armored knights. But best version of 40K. Either Rogue Trader or 2nd Edition with some minor fixes. No flyers, no overpriced large models and very few vehicles. |
Legion 4 | 15 Apr 2014 9:12 a.m. PST |
Agincourt
the GW guys must have missed that day in history class
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The Epic Gamer | 19 Apr 2014 5:19 a.m. PST |
I'll throw in another vote for 2nd edition if you want a good skirmish. You might also want to take a look at the old VOID rules: link It was a 40k clone which I THINK had a figure creation formula. If you can track down a copy of VOR, I know it had it. |
Der Krieg Geist | 20 Apr 2014 7:25 p.m. PST |
i think calling Void a 40K clone is a bit unfair. It is a good game in its own right and does not play or feel 40Kish in the slightest. At least not as I see it . Played them both alot. :) |
wehrmacht | 22 Apr 2014 12:38 p.m. PST |
Rogue Trader was the most fluff independent, and most people that played it pretty much have the understanding they can do whatever they want with it. ^^This. And RT wasn't bogged down by a ton of army- and unit-specific "special rules" either. Just don't give a high-strength follow-fire weapon to a high-Ballistic-Skill character and you'll be OK :-) Cheers w. |
Mithmee | 22 Apr 2014 6:03 p.m. PST |
Oh and limit the Psychic powers as well. There are some there that will clean your clock but good. |
Capt Flash | 26 Apr 2014 9:18 p.m. PST |
RT, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th. For all the reasons stated above. My personal preference is for 3rd and 6th. |
Bran Flayk | 30 Apr 2014 1:59 a.m. PST |
VOID didn't have troop creation formula. Earlier versions let you have allies from other factions, the later one was more dependent on having the relevant army book. Similar to 40K but with alternate activation (player 1 moves a unit, player 2 moves a unit etc). |