Chortle  | 12 Apr 2014 2:42 a.m. PST |
Were the Cuffs and collars of the Pavlov Grenadiers red at Borodino or green piped red? I've seen them done both ways, but mainly red. Did they have red lapels or not? Officers same lapels as the men? I think that the red lapels and green cuffs/collars piped red came in some time after Borodino. |
| Prince of Essling | 12 Apr 2014 4:28 a.m. PST |
From: 1852. Figures for the History of the Life Guards Pavlovsky Regiment (the Russian title wouldn't show correctly) link link link link |
 Mserafin  | 12 Apr 2014 6:53 a.m. PST |
I think that the red lapels and green cuffs/collars piped red came in some time after Borodino. I think this is correct. The Pavlovs were taken into the Guard at the beginning of 1813 because of their performance in 1812*. This is when they would have gotten the red lapels, and I think that's when the cuffs and collars changed as well. As of 1806 they had red collars and cuffs with white shoulder straps (according to Murray's "Imperial Russian Army" from 1965). I do not think this changed between then and Borodino. * – and they looked cool, so I'm sure that played a part in it. |
Sho Boki  | 12 Apr 2014 7:16 a.m. PST |
Borodino 1812.
Red collars and cuffs as for all grenadiers. No lapels.
AB miniatures. Painted by Roockie. |
| xxxxxxx | 12 Apr 2014 7:37 a.m. PST |
19.XII.1796 – 6.VI.1802 : lapels, collars, shoulder straps and cuffs orange (оранжевыми / oranzhevymi – a fully-saturated medium orange); yellow/gold galon on yellow-brass buttons 6.VI.1802 – 19.XII.1807 : no lapels, collars and cuffs red; shoulder straps white; no galon on yellow-brass buttons 19.XII.1807 : the number of the division "2." is addded to the shoulder straps in red wollen cord (gold for officers' epaulettes)
See link for the shape of the numeral. 3.II.1811 : the shoulder straps are now red, with the cursive capital letter "П." (it is the Cyrillic letter "P", for "Pavlovskiy") in yellow woolen cord
For shape of the cursive "П", see link (third row, letter on the far right of the row – the larger or capital version of the letter).
This is the "Borodino uniform". On 25.IV.1813, the regiment entered the Life-Guards. and then became entitled to ("new" or "young") guards uniforms : lapels and shoulder straps red; collars dark-green piped red; cuffs red; with white galon (gold for officers) on the collars and on the red-brass cuff buttons
They would have appeared with these disctinctions no earlier than than the autumn campaign of 1813, and quite possibly later. See : listat.ru/index.html - Sasha |
| Chortle | 13 Apr 2014 4:43 a.m. PST |
Thank you all! I found a complication. The figures (elite miniatures) all have very definitely raised insignia on the collar which place them 1813+, and the officers have obvious lapels (perhaps also an 1813+ determinant). So I had to do them for 1813+. |
| AUXILIAPAL | 13 Apr 2014 11:53 a.m. PST |
The AB miniatures painted by Roockie are absoliutely fantastic!!! |
| Widowson | 13 Apr 2014 8:01 p.m. PST |
I'm not the expert, here. But I think that when the Russians expanded the Guard to include former "grenadier" regiments Pavlov and Life Grenadiers, they created the red lapels as a distinction of the newer, "young guard" units. This tradition appears to have begun with new uniforms for the Guard Dragoons, which, I believe, were the first to wear lapels of any kind. Another Russian anomoly! |
| Widowson | 13 Apr 2014 8:02 p.m. PST |
I see that the officers of the miniature unit, shown above, wear shakos instead of miters. Can anyone confirm this practice in historical reality? |
| Sho Boki | 13 Apr 2014 10:20 p.m. PST |
Yes, in 1812 they wear shakos.
There, in picture, are little mistake too.. unmounted officer's gorget must contain more silver than gold.
And red lapels are weared within guard before Pavlov and Life Grenadiers added, there was already Lithuanian Guard regiment with red lapels in Borodino. |
| von Winterfeldt | 14 Apr 2014 3:46 a.m. PST |
Also in 1813 the officers are wearing shakos |
