"Prussian Flag question..post 1806" Topic

With the capitulation of most of the Prussiam army in 1806, most of the pre1806 plags were lost and is pretty well documented.
The surviving flags being used again for…
1st East Prussian – 2nd IR
1st Pomm – 8th IR
4th East Prussian – 16th IR
1st West prussian – 52nd IR
2nd west prussian – 58th? IR
1st Silesian – 38th IR 3rd Btn's (no colonel flag)
2nd Silesian – 33rd IR 3rd Btn's ( no colonel flag)
The other regiments receive the new issue Colberg pattern.
There were still the 11th, 14th, 42nd who fought under LesQ's Prussian Corp in Eylau campaign plus 3rd battalions of 23rd , 30th, 46st, & 47th.
It is also pretty well known there was a passing of flags to other regiments… IE 1st Silesian receiving the 38th IR 's regimental flags, etc.
So My question is ( assuming above is somewhat accurate) 1) what happen to those addition flags of the units( 11,14th…47th) and
2) would it explain why they were not used or available for the other regiments of the 1808 "12", who receive the Colberg pattern?

The new 2nd and 3rd East Prussian regiments (former IR 11 and 14) were missing 1 respectively 2 flags, which they had lost in 1807. In order to have a complete and homogenuous set of four flags, they received 4 new ones each.

The regiment Plötz (IR 42) had been dissolved on 30 September 1807, and its four flags were sent into the depot at Königsberg. Maybe they were too used to be recycled and given to another regiment, like those given to the two (newly formed) Silesian regiments.

Pre-1806 3rd battalions did not have flags.

On the appearance of the Prussian 1806 colours, see here (in German only):

link

Oliver Schmidt,
per your comment:
"The regiment Plötz (IR 42) had been dissolved on 30 September 1807, and its four flags were sent into the depot at Königsberg. Maybe they were too used to be recycled and given to another regiment, like those given to the two (newly formed) Silesian regiments"
Sooooo…. how did the Silesian units receive their flags, if they didn't receive them from the 3rd battalions of the regiments 33& 38 that survived and the main portion of the regiments were dissolved in the surrender and thus their flags lost?
MG

PDF link

And here in english

Good question ;-)

The king had allowed on 9 May 1809 that the two new Silesian regiments would receive colours from the depot in Glatz. Götzen selected colours of regiments Alvensleben (IR 33) and Pelchrzim (IR 38) for them, one complete set of four equal colours for each of the two regiments.

That's from Geschichte der Königlich Preußischen Fahnen und Standarten, vol. 1, Berlin 1889, p. 9 f.

As regiment Alvensleben had capitulated in Magedburg and regiment Pelchrzim in Neiße, both probably had lost their set of four colours.

However, on 23 May 1787 the number of flags per regiment had been reduced from 10 (one per company) to 4 (two per battalion). Probably the flags distributed in 1811 had been sent to the depot in Glatz as supernumerary in 1787.

Oliver

And from von Ebertz, Stamm-Liste (Kurze Geschichte) des 2. Schlesischen Grenadier-Regiments No. 11, Berlin 1886, p. 123:

The four colours received by the 2. Schlesisches Infanterie-Regiment in 1809 had formerly belonged to the Infanterie-Regiment von Goetzen [IR 33]. They had been sent together with two more colours to the depot in Glatz, following an order of 6 March 1787.

PS. I agree there is a slight contradiction between the dates of the orders given (the one in my earlier post was taken from Fiebig, Unsterbliche Treue). But at least there is no doubt on the year when the reduction of colours took place.

There still remains the question…What did they do with the flags from the regiments that survived the surrender and were still under arms under Les Q's troops ( 11th, 14th, 42nd)?
Why the depot flags of the 33 & 38 when there were probably others in depots?

MG

Many of the colours still existing in depots in 1806, will have been lost with the capitulations of the fortresses in which these depots were situated.

The colours which had been carried by the troops, often were in bad shape. There is a report of Generalmajor v. Bülow, of 8 May 1809, that the 2nd battalion of the 1. Pommersches Infanterie-Regiment (1806: Infanterie-Regiment vacant von Ruits [IR 8]) had got only one colour left, the other having been lost in the combat at Braunsberg. In the same combat the tip of the other colour had been shot off. He continues: "the colours of this regiment consist already since more than twenty years of mere flag poles." (Geschichte der Königlich Preußischen Fahnen und Standarten, vol. 2, p. 16)

Before 1806, the supernumerary six colours of of this regiment had been kept in the depot in Kolberg. Due to an order of 1st October 1809, this regiment returned the three worn colours to the depot in Kolberg, and received four other ones from their stock there. These "new" old colours were presented to the regiment on 10 January 1810.

Oliver S,
Thank you very much for the enlightenment in an area and army I have just began to learn about!
I have extensive French Army and resources…
From the example of the 1st Pommerian Regt you present, the situation for the two Silesian Regts would be similar, the flags came from depots that were not lost in the capitulations?
Would there also be a list of such I wonder?

MG

As said above, the two Silesian regiments got their new flags from the depot in Glatz.

I don't know a complete list of all (carried and deposited) colours of pre-1806 and their fate in 1806/7.

The best source on the surviving flags will be the 1889 Geschichte der Königlich Preußischen Fahnen und Standarten, in combination with regimental histories.

But of course, in order to profit from these sources, you must know German and read the "Gothic" script.

The work I mentioned is availabe online, see this post by the great Steve Smith:

link

Oliver,
Great link… thank you!
I see now some of what you have mention from my poor use of German/Gothic for the Silesian units and the depot. There does not seem much for the 3 regiments that survived 1806…but I will keep looking for now.

MG

Rudi,
The document is interesting as it shows fusilier battalions receiving flags prior to the 1815 for some highest seniority regiments. Do you think this correct that these did have a flag but simply did not carry them in battle per the King's order?
It also indicates that one old Silesian IR received replacements after Waterloo campaign of the 1810 pattern!

MG