"Senior Moment re Fussian Flags" Topic

Sorry, but I had some great info from Alexandre re Russian flags the other week. I think it was a thread gone off track, but I cannot find it. I asked about flag issues for specific regiments in 1805 – 07. Now I can't find it here. Any help would be much appreciated.

Heck, I can't even spell "Russian" without a typo.

Cannot you use the search facility to look for yourself in the "author" section? That should identify anything you have posted.

Mollinary

I find that I have searched most of those topics. Besides, Sasha is very prolific. Very hard to find an individual comment.

Is this the one: TMP link

Using the method I suggested, it took thirty seconds to find the topic "dumb enough form understanding rsian inspections" , which seems to include what you are looking for.

Mollinary

Mollinary,

Many thanks. That is what I was looking for. Just wish there was a better guide to Russian flags. VERY difficult subject.

I still can't find records for Voronej infantry regiment, but maybe I'm not spelling it right.

Widowson,

Воронежский мушкетерский полк / Voronezhskiy mushketerskiy polk / Voronezh musketeer regiment

Named for this city :
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voronezh

On 15 September 1798 granted flags obr. 1797, 1 with white cross and the corners halved dark crimson & dark blue *, and with the remainder having a dark crimson cross with the corners dark blue. White painted poles.

* To see the arrangement of the dark crimson and dark blue in the corners, see illustration "g" here (the lighter shade is the dark crimson):

5 December 1808 – as apparently the fifth most senior regiment in their divsion, the regiment was supposed to have been ordered to have black flag poles, although it is unclear how well or how fully this regulation was at first implemented
19 October 1810 – the regiment was converted to be the 37th Jägers and was no longer allowed flags.

- Sasha

I'm no expert on the Russian Army, but this site has a large number of flags. You may find what you're looking for here.
warflag.com

Sasha,

Thanks for the info. I'll have to use special glasses to make out the "g", but you have access to info I don't reach – in Russian, I presume. We should write a guide book. Between the flags, the miters, and non-numbered infantry regiments, the Russian army can be a nightmare for those who don't read the language.

Traveller,

You have to be careful getting this kind of info off any site, including Warflag. I've seen too many errors to trust any site, including Warflag.

Traveller,

Just for kicks I again visited the Warflag site. They don't even list the model 1800. I believe only about 7 regiments ever received them, but as I'm building one of those units (Tauride Grenadier Regt.), it's pretty important.

The real problem is that Viskovatov, the only comprehensive translated source on the subject, lists which regiments received the Model 1803, as well as the Model 1806 (St. George). But Viskovatov makes no mention of the Model 1800. So any unit not mentioned in the text as receiving the Model 1803 could have carried Model 1797 OR Model 1800.

Also, I note that Warflags does not illustrate every regiment they list.

Perhaps another senior moment, but I cannot find a listing of the seven or so Russian infantry regiments who were issued the Model 1800 flags.

In a booklet by Wm. Murray (1965), I find the following regiments were issued Model 1800 flags:

Moscow Gren, though the Moscow Grenadiers appear to have been issued a variant of the Model 1800, and replaced by Model 1803 in 1805.
Schlusselburg Musketeers, replaced by Model 1803 in 1808.
Azov Musketeers, replaced by Model 1803 in 1809.
Phangoria Grenadiers, replaced by Model 1806 in 1810.
Grouzinski Grenadiers, replaced by Model 1806 in 1812.
Troitski Musketeers, replaced by Model 1803 in 1812.
Perm Musketeers, replaced by Model 1803 in 1814.

I don't know where Murray got his information, and it's a bit backhanded. He is actually describing distinctive versions of Model 1803 and 06, but he mentions that these replaced the Model 1800s.

From Sasha I get that the Tauride Grenadiers had model 1800, and carried them through the period. That's seven regiments. Is that all there were, and did I get them right?

I don't know anything about Mr. Murray's booklet, but e looked at teh Azovskiy musketeers here :
TMP link
and found they did nto have obr. 1800 flags.
If you are painting any of these others, let me know and I will look them up.

Doing a look-up is not perfectly straight forward, as there were several re-namings and 2 substantial re-organizations in the years 1815-1900, and usually you have to first figure out what was(were) the regiment(s) that inherited the traditions of the subject regiment.

Overall, the web page by Mr, Gingerich is as good as it gets in English, or really in any language:
link

He is plowing through essentially all the regimental differences. He has not gotten to the flags yet, but he will get to them some day I hope.
Right now, he is looking at the evolution in the designs of the Russian Guard cavalry galons/lace.

- Sasha

Fair enough. I don't know where Murray got his info, and it was in 1965, so it would be hard to dig it up, I imagine.

So how about the more general question:

Other than the Tauride Grenadiers and the Guard infantry, what regiments WERE issued the Model 1800 flags?

Widowson,

I am sorry, but I really don't want ot write a book about Russian flags, and you question would need a good section of a book to completely answer. That's why I wrote before that I wuld be really happy to look-up a regiment you were painting, implying that looking up all the regiments would be a bit much. But let me try to give some intial, partial response to decribe the overall picture with regard to obr. 1800 flags ….

You know about obr. 1800 flags for the guards.

They were also issued to quite a few garrison regiments. I have listed some below – there may be others. At the time of issue, the regiments were named for their commanders. So the names changed every few months. They went back to being named for their garrison locations later, but there were still quite a few transfers and re-namings, both of battalions and of whole regiments.

Генерал-лейтенанта Болотникова гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-лейтенанта Вырубова 1-го гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-лейтенанта графа Ливена 3-го гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-лейтенанта князя Гика гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-лейтенанта Лебедева гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-лейтенанта Пущина 1-го гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-лейтенанта Эссена 3-го гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора Балашова гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора Борщова гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора Завалишина гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора князя Вяземского гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора Корфа гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора Массе гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора Ольвинцева гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора Плуталова гарнизонный полк (1800-1801)
Генерал-майора Ретюнского гарнизонный полк (1800-1800)

A bunch of these flags were in the Caucasus and Siberia, and they mostly stayed there with various local formations even until the bolshevik revolution. For example, graf Liven-3's garrison regiment (Генерал-лейтенанта графа Ливена 3-го гарнизонный полк) was the Astrakhanskiy garrison regiment, and the flags remained in use with various local formations in the Caucasus until after 1900, where they apparently ended up with 198th Aleksandro-Nevskiy infantry regiment in World War 1.

Some other obr. 1800 flags were in garrison regiments whose battlaions were used to make regular infanty regiments in 1811. Examples of regiments with one or more battlaions bringing obr. 1800 flags to the initial formation of the regiment :
Воронежский пехотный полк
Пензенский пехотный полк
Литовский пехотный полк
Подольский пехотный полк
Саратовский пехотный полк
Брянский пехотный полк
Орловский пехотный полк
Эстляндский пехотный полк
Note : These are the new regiments of 1811, although in some cases using names of prior regiments that were converted to Jäger. So, the list of these is interesting to 1812 year, not to the 1806/1807 campaigns.

I found one case of a semi-garrison regiment that recieved the obr. 1800 flags that may be of more interest to the 1806/1807 period. There were security formations at various key government installations and buildings. One of these was of regiment size by 1800, the Сенатский полк / Senatskiy polk / Senate regiment. In 1800 this regiment was taken into the regular army as the Литовский мушкетерский полк / Litovskiy mushketerskiy polk / Lithuania musketeer regiment. They carried their obr. 1800 flags until conversion into the 33rd Jägers in 1810.

For direct issue to army regimetns, I found five so far, all bearing honorific inscriptions on blue ribbons. As far as I can tell, this was only reason an army unit would have gotten the obr. 1800 issued to them.

Таврический гренадерский полк / Tavricheskiy grenaderskiy polk / Tauride grenadier regiment
"За взятiе знамя въ сраженiи противъ французовъ въ Голландiи подъ г. Бергеномъ 1799 года"

Кабардинский мушкетерский полк / Kabardinskiy mushketerskiy polk / Karbinda musketeer regiment
"За взятiе у аварскихъ войскъ знамя при реке Iоре, 7-го Ноября 1800"

Смоленский мушкетерский полк / Smolenskiy mushketerskiy polk / Smolensk musketeer regiment
"За взятiе французскихъ знаменъ на горахъ Алпiйскихъ"

Архангелогородский мушкетерский полк / Arkhangelogorodskiy mushketerskiy polk / Archangel/Arkhangelsk musketeer regiment
"За взятiе французскихъ знаменъ на горахъ Алпiйскихъ"

Московский гренадерский полк / Moskovskiy grenaderskiy polk / Moscow grenadier regiment
"За взятiе знамя у французовъ при Требiи и Нуре 1799 года"

Well, that's not a book …. but at least it's a start and shows why this is not exactly the most simple question to answer completely.

- Sasha

Yes, nothing is simple with the Russians. It begins with non-numbered regiments and proceeds from there!

Widowson,
I agree. That's why I was drawn to fielding them …. before knowing the language, before being married to a Russian, before working in Russia (all of which are also not so simple) …. it was the challenge of the research compared to, for example, the French.
And ….
When the Russians number regiments, such as the Jäger, they do happily re-number them from time to time and (later) did also add (changing) honorific names. So, even the numbering is only a starting point.
Bien fort amicalement,
- Sasha

For me it was the Russian-made movie, WAR AND PEACE, as well as the novel, which I am currently reading unabridged for the first time. Tell me, is Pierre the son of Catherine the Great? Does anyone know why his dad willed the entire estate to him? He was such a wastrel!

Besides, I really love the cylindrical back pack and the top hats worn by the jagers in the early period. And the hussars, lots of hussars. And the cossacks . . .

So much to love!