Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 05 Apr 2014 11:00 a.m. PST |
Hi guys, I'm just working my way through the Osprey book on the Rhineland battles in early 45(Operation Veritable). There is a picture of a abandoned tank, half submerged in flood water, and the caption describes it as a Valentine. This has left me somewhat confused as I didn't think Valentines where in use by this time or in this theatre. I have read a few Valentine bridging tanks made it to Europe but this picture looks like a normal gun tank rather than a bridging tank to my untrained eye. Any ideas where this tank came from? Thanks Jon |
Skeptic | 05 Apr 2014 11:09 a.m. PST |
Might it have been captured from the Russians, and used by the Germans? |
Phil Gray | 05 Apr 2014 11:16 a.m. PST |
Or an OP tank? Like this one: link |
PiersBrand | 05 Apr 2014 11:18 a.m. PST |
I think the command tanks in Archer batteries were Valentines. |
Doms Decals | 05 Apr 2014 11:35 a.m. PST |
Piers is spot on – Valentines (Mk.XI, I think) were used as command tanks for Archer batteries. |
bc1745 | 05 Apr 2014 12:03 p.m. PST |
Also a few Valentines had their turrets removed and were equipped as bridge layers which were used in Northern Europe. IIRC the bridge had a 30cwt capacity? |
Jemima Fawr | 05 Apr 2014 3:51 p.m. PST |
I know the photo very well. It's a Valentine XI (i.e. with 75mm gun). As Dom says, they were used as Troop command vehicles for Royal Artillery Valentine SP 17pdr Troops (1x Valentine XI to 4x Valentine SP 17pdr). Although designated as OP tanks, they normally retained the gun (as did most OP tanks, in fact). They may also have been used as general artillery OP tanks, though I've not found any examples of that. Yes, Armoured Brigade HQs in NW Europe and Burma usually had a Bridging Troop of 6x Valentine Bridgelayer. IIRC, they were nowhere near as common in Italy. There was also a curious armoured squadron equipped with Valentines belonging to 52 Recce Regiment (for amphibious ops), but they never deployed to Europe. |
Prince Rupert of the Rhine | 05 Apr 2014 11:04 p.m. PST |
Thanks guys interesting stuff. |
ciaphas | 06 Apr 2014 3:56 a.m. PST |
didn't 52nd Lowland Division have some. jon |
Jemima Fawr | 06 Apr 2014 7:50 a.m. PST |
Yes, 52 Recce Regt as mentioned above. 52 (L) Div, as part of 1st Airborne Army, was geared for light mountain/air-transportable/sea-transportable ops and the Valentine was ideal for their needs, being light enough to be transported in small craft, yet still carrying sufficient armour and a big enough gun. One of 52 Recce Regt's squadrons was therefore converted to Valentines (a mix of 6pdr and 75mm tanks). The squadron was converted back to the usual Recce Regt orbat when they finally deployed to Europe in a conventional role. |
(Stolen Name) | 06 Apr 2014 5:31 p.m. PST |
I was going to say the Soviets still had a few Valentines in Europe in 1945 |
shaun from s and s models | 07 Apr 2014 2:33 a.m. PST |
they even used valentine dd's in Italy, without with the turret and used as a logistic vehicle to carry fuel over a river. the valentine had a long and varied carer, a very overlooked vehicle. |
Jemima Fawr | 07 Apr 2014 6:54 a.m. PST |
Yes, that's definitely my favourite weird use of a Valentine hull (I read that each DD Sqn had 1x Valentine DD Carrier)
:) |
Mserafin | 07 Apr 2014 8:05 a.m. PST |
I was going to say the Soviets still had a few Valentines in Europe in 1945 Yes they did, and I believe the first Soviet tank into Berlin was a Valentine from a recce unit. |
Sergeant Ewart | 07 Apr 2014 10:36 a.m. PST |
R Mark Davies I have been looking for a detailed OOB & TOE for the 52nd Lowland after their conversion to the mountain role – can you help? TIA Gerry McGinty |
Jemima Fawr | 07 Apr 2014 11:05 a.m. PST |
Hi Gerry, I must admit that I don't have a lot on them. My interest only really starts when they got deployed to Europe. The bit about Valentines I only picked up in passing when reading a history of 52 Recce Regt. As I understand it, they went through a series of transitions and after adoption by 1 Airborne Army, the three brigades adopted subtly different structures, with one brigade being roled to seaborne ops and another to air-transportable ops, but I don't have any more detail to add. |
ciaphas | 08 Apr 2014 6:20 a.m. PST |
try low parks museum in Hamilton, they have a large collection of Cameronian (Scottish Rifles) material and may have information or possibly a lead on the information you are looking for. "The history of the 52nd (Lowland) Divisional Reconnaissance Regiment R.A.C., January, 1941-October, 1945" by T.D.W. Whitfield appeared in the The Hamilton Advertiser it ran to about 79 pages. jon |
PiersBrand | 08 Apr 2014 6:29 a.m. PST |
Caption states Germany, April 1945
link |
Jemima Fawr | 08 Apr 2014 8:14 a.m. PST |
My favourite photo: Valentine OP parked next to E100 prototype chassis:
Interestingly, there is also this SPAT Battery Commander's mount in India, circa July 1945 (the battery's weapons were T48 57mm GMCs – i.e. 6pdrs on halftracks):
|
Gary Kennedy | 08 Apr 2014 11:16 a.m. PST |
Sergeant Ewart, Re the 52nd (Lowland) Div, the only specific WEs I've found for them are the Recce Regt (all scout cars, no armd cars) and the attached Tank Sqn, plus the Mountain Regt, RA. I've not seen anything to indicate that special WEs were issued for the Inf, Arty and Engrs or other units of the Div. Gary |
Sergeant Ewart | 08 Apr 2014 2:10 p.m. PST |
Thanks guys for your replies. It does seem strange to me that the British Army is so well detailed today yet the TOE of the 'Lowlanders' is so hard to come by. Best regards Gerry |