"Kings in battle wearing crowns?" Topic

When an English King, and other English royals, rode into battle did they wear a crown upon their heads/helmets to signify and identify their royal status?

What would such a crown look like? Surely, not the coronation crown.

My interest is during the reigns of Edward III, The Black Prince, Henry IV, Henry V, and other royal Dukes during that period. Thanks.

Wasn't Richrad III the last to do so atBosworth Field?

There are crowned helms you can use in battle. They tend to be more like a circlet and are built in. If you Google crowned helmet it. There is a discussion on the following thread.
link

A very interesting link there Dravi74, thanks.

I am aware, and like, the images of The Black Prince but I am looking for something more regal for a king. The picture showing the rust spots of a crown on the bascinet helmet is very interesting and has huge potential in what I am attempting to do.

Thanks guys.

A further question concerning the above photograph, do you think that the crown was fixed so that the visor could be raised over it, or do you think the visor was fitted long after the crown was removed?

From these images I guess a reasonable representation can be achieved. Would love to known the sources of the artists/designers though.

@Captain: The hinged visor on the bascinet cleared the crown. The discolored fleur-de-lis shaped areas on the bascinet indicate that the missing crown was built to conform to the curvature….

"From these images I guess a reasonable representation can be achieved. Would love to known the sources of the artists/designers though"

The great seals of kings tend to show crown on the helmets e.g. link
How reliable that is for battlefield wear is another matter but of the Richard III story is true it then they may be a good representation.

I appreciate your responses. Thank you.

Great War Ace may I just clarify something here. It concerns the helmet in the photograph and in this instance whether the crown was attached to an open-face bascinet; or, whether the visor was attached with the rivet and hinge then being drilled into the crown and a visor opening over it; or, whether the visor in this image was fixed long after the helmet lost the crown – a bit of fix and use again. I would value your clarification.

Swampster The image on the seal shows a crown on top of a helm and is useful to me for an earlier project of mine but, unfortunately, falls outside this period of interest, thank you. (1360 – 1415)

'asn't Richrad III the last to do so atBosworth Field?'
Also wasn't his crown found elsewhere on the field which would stronly support the thinking that this was sat independently on the helm. (Thoiugh not my area of expertise!!!)

The same site has seals for all sorts of kings and others. link
Ed III may have a crown or a crest.
Henry IV-VI have a crest and if there is a crown I can't see it but Henry VII does seem to have one so suggesting continuation of practice in your period,.

Wasn't Richrad III the last to do so at Bosworth Field?'
Also wasn't his crown found elsewhere on the field which would strongly support the thinking that this was sat independently on the helm.

At least that was a pretty good cover story, if Henry VII had an "unofficial" crown in his briefcase, ready just in case.

Thanks Swampster, I didn't look beyond the first page before. The design appears to be similar to that used by the Black Prince.

link

The following is of interest;

"The conical helm was worn over the visorless bassinet …and being only donned in the hour of danger, is rarely represented in monuments, except as a pillow under the head. When worn the face was invisible and recognition impossible, so that a moulded crest of linen, leather, or some light material surmounted it and became its most important feature".

"The bassinet, used with or without the helm, enjoyed a prolonged period of favour from Edward I. to Henry VI …At the outset merely a skull-cap, it was gradually prolonged at the back and sides so as to leave only the face exposed. Early in the fourteenth century its appearance was profoundly modified by the addition of a movable visor, at first hinged at the side, but subsequently raised and lowered from above the forehead. Being readily removed, the visor was only worn in action, and is thus rarely represented in effigies and brasses. No helm was worn over the visored bassinet, which became the battle head-piece of the fourteenth century and part of the fifteenth, the helm being reserved for jousts and tournaments".

link

It probably just comes down to preference on the wargame table and I quite like the image of Owen Glendower, as above.

Thanks guys.

I would value your clarification.

It seems obvious from the picture that the visor would easily clear any "crown" laid flush with the helmet's curvature. Therefore I see no reason to assume a later visor. The "crown" being of most likely precious metal was taken by somebody. This could have been done without disturbing the visor. The hinge points of the visor do not pierce the missing "crown" detail, as the picture shows the hinge points inside one of the "petals" of the fleur-de-lis….

Of interest, thanks.

Now looking at the fitting of the visor it seems that the hinge opens the snout across the face, left to right. Is that a correct interpretation? Does this visor lift up and also opens across the face?

I appreciate your input.

Those are removal pins, not hinges. Both sides have them. If you removed one pin you could swing the visor out of the way like on a hinge, but it would be extremely unwieldy and would also threaten to bend the visor. Pins sometimes were attached to the visor on little chains so that they would not get lost….

Great War Ace, excellent. I much appreciate your information and helpfulness.

As aye,

D'Ewell