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"Logic behind the Regensburg raid?" Topic


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Skarper04 Apr 2014 5:04 a.m. PST

What was the point? The North African bases are much further from Regensburg than England – and all that Mediterranean Sea to cross too plus the Alps to crash into.

I suppose they avoid the LW fighters on the return leg by taking a surprise route – and that seems to have worked at least.

Execution was quite poor too, so if they'd managed to all cross the coast at the same time it might have been more successful. But if it had worked they'd have done it again – surely and they don't seem to have.

I've just started looking into this for my game and there may be answers to my question readily available online – but in the meantime would anyone like to help?

John the OFM04 Apr 2014 6:43 a.m. PST

The "logic" of it was that the Army Air Corps wanted to prove that they could win the war all by itself. (They still do.)
They KNEW the planes would get through, and have minimal losses.
They KNEW that the bombers had adequate protection from fighters with all the machine guns they carried.
They KNEW they would completely destroy the target.
They KNEW that the glorious success would guarantee an independent Air Force.
They also had all these huge expensive planes whose existence they had to justify.
Logically speaking, it was going to be a huge success.
They didn't do it again until much later because of the unanticipated unsustainable heavy losses.

Chalk up the raid in the "we didn't know what we didn't know" and "lessons to be learned" category.
It was a humbling experience (Air Force generals? Humble???) and they learned from it.
So, do not apply a wargamer's Monday Morning Quarterback perspective to it.

BTW, did you ever notice that the primary things an Air Force wants to destroy in a war are things that can harm bombers? Thus fighter factories are more important than U-boat pens, or critical rail yards. Things that can help the army or navy are dismissed scornfully as of secondary importance.
It's also interesting to note that once a target was bombed, it was crossed off the "to do" list. Very late into the war, they STILL thought that a raid that got through completely destroyed the target.
After the Air Forces waded through the checklist, all the Army had to do was come in and occupy things, set up an occupation government, etc. The Navy was of course needed to put the Army ashore, and haul bombs and fuel to England. Other than that…

Skarper04 Apr 2014 8:07 a.m. PST

Well – there is that take on the problem I suppose.

I also tend to think the strategic air campaign was a huge strategic blunder – both the RAF and USAAF versions. Sure they caused the LW to withdraw from tactical support to defend the Reich but had their fighters been allowed to operate freely over the battlefields of the ETO, MTO then the allied fighters would have made short work of them – given their enormous numerical superiority – even more so if you are not dissipating effort into bombers and escorts.

Watching '12 o'clock high' you can read between the lines and discern what the OFM articulates – albeit I think the writers were on the air force side of the argument.

Mako1104 Apr 2014 10:18 a.m. PST

Weather and coordination were major issues.

I suspect on paper it looked good.

It did catch the LW napping, since they were expecting them to return to England, so at least they weren't subjected to aerial attacks on the return leg.

It was a learning process.

Eventually, they had the aircraft numbers, more experienced pilots and leaders, and strategy to devastate the Luftwaffe, but it took time.

If both raids had been launched as planned, at roughly the same time, I suspect the defender's resources would have been reduced considerably against each raid.

Neroon04 Apr 2014 12:05 p.m. PST

link

Ya know, a little effort on your part would make things easier all round. :-)

cheers

troopwo Supporting Member of TMP04 Apr 2014 1:26 p.m. PST

John the OFM has it down pretty well.
Funny that the Army Air Corp actually started the air campaigns in Europre way more ambitiously than anyone thought.

It was as if they hadn't even been paying much attention to the RAF or Luftwaffe battles from '39-'41 at all.

Mind they did try some ambitious stuff.
The Ploesti Raids is a good example.

It got so bad before the P47s arrived, that very few people know that the USAAC actually had one or two wings start to train to join the RAFs' night bombing force. Seriously.

The Regensberg raid was another lesson in risking mens lives to prove theories.

dragon6 Supporting Member of TMP04 Apr 2014 2:38 p.m. PST

It's not like Bomber Command's battle for Berlin was a victory either.

Martin Rapier05 Apr 2014 12:08 a.m. PST

There is a difference between one raid and a prolonged offensive of course. But the nature of WW2 strategic air warfare was essentially attentional, so yes, it was costly and unpleasant for everyone involved.

Skarper05 Apr 2014 7:04 a.m. PST

Thanks for the responses. The Wikipedia article is as ever a good place to start but doesn't cover my specific question about why fly on to North Africa rather than return to England. [unless I missed it while reading too fast!]

Avoiding fighters seems an odd reason since they felt it was worth the risk to fly deep into Germany without escort cover anyway – surely the Germans just focused all their fighters on the Schweinfurt force rather than split it anyway?

But to comment on the wider issue – It's pretty clear the 1943 USAAF campaign was in trouble – losses were massively out of step with any measurable gains. I've always supposed the RAF night bombing and the USAAF daylight bombing were given so many resources and so much leeway because at the time there was no other way to strike directly at Germany.

Thereafter they had a momentum of their own – aircraft were being built and crews trained for a massive battle of attrition and it was simply too late to stop by 1944.

troopwo Supporting Member of TMP05 Apr 2014 9:47 a.m. PST

Skarper, the bombing offensives did not have a direct impact on the war until nearly the end of the war when they all concentrated on the petroleum industry.

Bombed out industries certainly took their toll, but they could be rebuilt and were, sometimes to a greater and less vulnerable extant.

The biggest role that the bombing offensive had was probably the diversion of resources from other priorities. A million men manning flak defenses and how many flak guns that could have been used where else??? The labour and technology used in defending against bombers was so much more labour and technology that was not used in developping German bombers and the V3, V4,V5 et cetera,,,.

Strangley enough, where the UK and Germany had the ability to rebuild and foster industries, Japan never did. Food for thought.

zippyfusenet06 Apr 2014 5:10 a.m. PST

The Wikipedia article is as ever a good place to start but doesn't cover my specific question about why fly on to North Africa rather than return to England.

'Shuttle bombing' was the tactic of mounting a bombing mission from one set of bases and, instead of returning from the target to the original bases, continuing on to land at a different set of bases. The mission force would refuel, rearm and return to their home base in another mission on a later day.

The purpose of shuttle bombing was to confuse the enemy as to the bombing force's course, to wrong-foot him if possible, at least to keep him guessing. The hoped-for advantage would be to reduce bomber losses on the return leg of the mission, by misdirecting and dispersing enemy fighter interception.

It was soon seen in WWII that the greatest threat to day bombers was fighter interception, especially when the bombers flew without fighter escorts.

German ground control used effective radar early warning and tracking and excellent communications to command fighters from all over the Reich against USAAF deep penetration raids. Interceptors were gathered and held back until short-ranged escort fighters had left for home, then were flung in concentrated formations against the bombers, inflicting heavy losses.

The USAAF used a number of tactics to limit the interceptors' advantages during the run from home base to target. Spoof raids and diversionary raids were flown with small numbers of aircraft, in hope of delaying German recognition of the main mission force. The main force often flew an ambiguous, indirect course that could resolve into several different targets, and sometimes seperated and struck multiple targets, in order to delay German recognition of the main target. When they worked, these tactics forced the Germans to disperse their fighter resources to cover multiple potential targets.

But once the bombs dropped and the bombers turned for home, deception ended. German ground control was able to concentrate maximum force against the returning bombers, and losses were often heaviest on the return leg of the mission.

The tactic of shuttle bombing introduced deception and misdirection into the return leg of the bomber mission. If the Germans concentrated fighter resources on the route back to home base, they might be caught flat-footed when the bombers…never…turned…around…but continued on to their alternate bases. This happened with the Regensburg raiding force, which largely avoided further losses to German fighters, although bombers were lost to the length and rigors of the flight to North Africa.

Where a raid could possibly develop into a shuttle flight, a prudent German fighter controller had to position some of his forces to cover other lines of retreat, besides the one that returned straight from the bombers' target to their home bases, or risk the raiders making a clean getaway on their return flight.

The USAAF continued to use the tactic of shuttle bombing throughout the war in Europe. Later in the war, raids that shuttled between bases in the UK, Italy and the USSR achieved mixed success.

The greatest difficulty in shuttle bombing was developing the alternate bases. Massed groups of heavy bombers could not operate out of improvised grass airstrips. It took time and cost money to build suitable bases with concrete runways, hangers and other permanent building, inventories of spare parts and tools, stores of fuel, bombs and ammunition, and the ground forces to operate and defend them.

Even where the alternate bomber bases existed, as in late-war Italy, it took extra planning and effort to stage 'guest' bomb groups through them on shuttle missions. The attempt to operate from Soviet bases ultimately failed, because the Russians were unable to provide the base security that the USAAF required for normal operation of its heavy bombers – the Germans found out where the bases were and bombed the hell out of them, destroying hundreds of American bombers and escort fighters on the ground.

Flying the Regensburg raiding force from the UK all the way to North Africa was a mighty far fetch, and excessive operational losses occurred. Later in the war, the distances covered on shuttle bombing missions were not so great. The Regensburg plan may have reflected USAAF over-confidence, at this stage of the war, in their ability to execute ultra-long-range missions. The Tidal Wave low-level attack on Ploesti might be another example. That innovative and daring attack was completed as ordered, and scored heavy damage on the target – but at a cost of nearly 1/3 of the raiding force.

Skarper06 Apr 2014 6:29 a.m. PST

Thanks very much zippy – that seems to be the answer.

It looks like a dumb move after the fact but the need to avoid getting hit again on the return leg by the LW fighters seems to have prompted the (ultimately unsuccessful) experiment.

The overconfident AmeriCAN attitude has come a cropper more than once since that time – so overconfidence is I'm sure partly to blame.

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