"ArmiesArmy Rusk VTOL" Topic

More of a testor really. Comrade Burton and his BDB have come up rather trumps again in my mind, however I thought I might post a few pics of them here.

BDB brings to you the Ka 131 and Ka 231 series of Airborne Transport

The traditional ka131 has twin rotors, whilst the ka231 is of a VTOL variant. Both Troop and gunship variants will be available. More details to follow!

Comments as always welcome

Keith
AA

Want 2 of the twin rotor variants…… when Keith when?

The radome in the front looks like it clashes a little to me, but overall I like them both. Any change we could get jets to replace the rotors on the twin?

-Will

Hi

If popular, Ill get them sent to print in the next two weeks. Back and cleaned within the month and then another month to cast with resin and metal :)So not to far

Will, Jets to replace the rotors? Im probably being daft, however Im not sure I get you sorry :)

Keith

I think he means moveable angled jets instead of rotors possibly on a boom across the upper structure with twin engines.

Ahhh yes…
I think that's very doable!

Let me have a look

Yep, basically what Muncehead said, replace the current turbine nacelles with a 'jet engine' nacelle.

-Will

Work on the rotors and the nose a little. I am liking it though. If you leave it as is it's still great for near future scenarios.

Propellers are the way to go in my opinion. Nice near-future look to complement the existing range. Also propellers don't fry the poor infantrymen that are trying to disembark.

These are nice, they look like something a well established but not advanced colony might knock together for its militia or defense force.

What would be really nice to see would be some weapon and armour packages to 'upgun' them.

I like the clown nose, its pretty characterful. Not every piece of sci-fi hardware needs to look super sleek.

They're very cool.

Sexy

The Ka131 looks great as it is! The radome clashes a bit as someone said, but IMO that's exactly the look you need for not-russian not-helos…

Pleaaaase don't got the jet way for the Ka132 (or at least offer both variants, if that makes economical sense). Never mind the whole ingame "jets would fry disembarking infantry" argument, but with it's boxy fuselage, H-tail, and orientable jets at the end of it's wing, you'd basically be making Brigade Models Athena VTOL all over again.

I'll definitely buy the Ka131 and a rotor-Ka132. I'm not interested in a jet-Ka132 (I alreaady own the above model).

That being said I thing the rotor of the Ka132 could use a bit more work. As they are they look a bit too much like some kid's toy windmill… I'd make the blades a little less curvy (IMO the look you got there hints at a very low speed propeller, something used in the 10s of mph not the kind of thing you'd use to fly at a couple 100s mph). Also you'd want to at least suggest some sort of variable pitch mechanism: a chopper taking-off/landing by just playing on it's rotor speed would need either engines or gearboxes a bit too zorty for my disbelief to remain safely suspended.

Not trying to take pot shots at you here. They're great models and as I said I'd buy the 131 as it is in a heartbeat! Probably the 132 too even if I have to replace the rotors with something of my own.

I prefer the rotor versions. My games are set about a century from now and I assume that prop and rotor aircraft will still be common enough.

Great designs as usual AA .
All VTOL buses ( because basically that's their job )whether rotor or jet are cool. I'd love to see a Chinook style one.

At the moment I'm working on 2 types ( chinook style will follow do later) & will post pics soon.

Z

These look great! I love rotor models :)

RebelMike
Rebelminis.com

Cool. How would it look if the dome was moved to the side? So it looks even more out of place?

Might be a good idea! But it would beg the question of why it isn't centered…

1) Because the radar is so big that it takes quite a bit of room inside the fuselage too needing to be shifted to the left to let room for the pilot's leg on the right (traditionally, the helicopter single pilot/commander sits on the right)! Meaning the craft is a single pilot one… IMO, this explanation brings with it more questions than answers: why is the radar so ing big given we're in the future and can assume than radars get smaller or at least remain the same size as nowadays and that the craft doesn't seem to be a dedicated EW one?

2) Because something else needed room on the nose and the designer decide to put both the radar and that thing side by side. But what? Some weapon? Some EOS? A side by side configuration means bigger than necessary blind arcs for both the radar and that weapon/EOS… Most helicopters with such dual systems have an over and under arrangement for that reason. But hey, maybe the designer wasn't very good!

3) My favourite: move the radome left and either make the right side windows lower or add lower panes, allowing at least the aircraft commander too look down between/along his legs and thus a better sight of where he's putting down his wheels/skids.

But yeah, overall I think an off-center radome would add to the Russian-function-all-the-way-over-form-ugly-duckling look of the model. And I mean that in a good way ;)

Quick and dirty (I wouldn't want to shame anyone with my insane 3D modelling skills) "renders" of three and five blades versions…

I'm still in the jet camp, but I didn't mean totally ditch the props, just provide an alternative engine fit if folks (like me) wanted it.

-Will

Please don't ditch the rotors, and consider adding some FLIR and other sensor pods as options to the weapons so I can build a more civilian or para-military looking version.

Trojan Points makes an excellent point (pun intended) about the "if it has jets it looks a lot like Brigade's Athena".

I think that a rotor version is the best option. Radome to the side sounds like a neat idea, but for a reason: perhaps a forward firing 'something' next to it to balance?

John T

Yeah, I understood the question was for a jet 'option', and that DOES make sense.

As for 'looks like', I prefer to have similar-but-different choices. Too many Western/Soviet clones, I guess…

Also propellers don't fry the poor infantrymen that are trying to disembark.

'Sufficiently advanced' jets don't fry anyone… ;->=

Doug

I'll take the jet option if it doesn't screw up the economics of producing the VTOL.

Thanks,

Pat

If those turboprops are separate pieces, it shouldn't be too hard to produce a pair of jet-engine alternatives, should it?

While I like the overall Kamov-ness of the designs, that radar dome is too intrusive for my taste; I wouldn't buy these for that reason alone. It looks like a giant clown nose. Is it possible to make the dome separate so that them as wants it can add it and those of us who don't can skip it?

You're going to hate me for this, but those props "should" be handed. The right-hand prop is correct, the left-hand prop needs to be turning in the opposite direction to get the prop vortex hitting the underside of the wing for more lift.

Just like the co-axial rotors, one spins clockwise and the other spins counter-clockwise.

Personally, I'm not totally enthused with the co-axial design. It looks too "current-day", IMO.

That "Ospreyski", however… Do. WANT!

I do like the last pic with the five prop blades im not quite sure why but it does give the "Ospreyski" a more Russian vibe. I also think you have to many weapon mounts, i would just keep the main two by the doors and the nacelle tips could also be made into weapon points also.

Thanks for your observations Trojan Points and others.

Yes, the rotor blades aren't finished, and variable pitch will feature in the final versions. The current ones were just quick twist/deforms to give a rough idea without too much work. Part of the reason for that was at the time I worked these up and sent them to Keith, I was, and still am, reviewing materials/manufacturing choices to improve the representation of blades on a 15mm model.

I had in fact modelled the Ka131 first, and whilst I was tinkering with it before showing him, Keith dropped a subtle hint of wanting something V-22 Osprey like. In line with the other recent Buzzard Design Bureau output, neither were ever meant to look like a high price tag, advanced high-tech, best of class VTOL/helicopter.

My 3D design work is purely for fun, and I like taking inspiration from the functional Soviet design ethos. Its a simple process. Take an existing proven Soviet design (going all the way back to the late 1950s designed Kamov Ka-20) which I developed into the Ka131. Then reuse as many components as possible (as in real life for ease of supply chain and cost of manufacturing new production line tooling) to meet a different equipment requirement.

I wanted to give the Ka231 some really old school style design elements. For inspiration I went even further back in time to some of the earliest propellers (non Soviet!) with four curved blades. My inspiration was the one fitted on some of the WW1 DH-4 biplanes, an Airfix 1/72 scale model of which I remember from my early modelling years.

Low flying speed does not hinder, but actually benefitted some of the types of missions I'd considered for the Ka231. I'd thought of the Ka231 as the land anywhere, whatever the weather, basic workhorse. I just imagined it as something happily battling extreme artic weather, to land on an ice runway.

Keith will of course be able to easily offer different blades with the released models. Likewise if he decides on a jet or fan pods to replace the current propeller drives, I'm sure some will want one type, some another. This is why I enjoy supplying 3D models to Keith, I can leave him to tweak them to meet the diverse customer needs.

As for the nose pod, it was designed to weatherproof the forward facing terrain and weather mapping multi-sensor mini-radars. But again using the traditional Soviet design ethos, it may be empty, or fitted with ECM, or part of an ASW fit out (with air-droppable disposable mini sonar pods). There has even been speculation by hostile intelligence agencies that the ski-fitted Ka231 is in fact fitted with a huge airbag in the nose pod, deployed in case of a crash!

Comrade Burton
Buzzard Design Bureau/Ancient Buzzard

There has even been speculation by hostile intelligence agencies that the ski-fitted Ka231 is in fact fitted with a huge airbag in the nose pod, deployed in case of a crash!

Does it honk on impact? :P

Are there any plans to do something a bit spikier like a dedicated VTOL gunship ala Blackshark?

PeoplesRepublic

Only honks if you squeeze it :-)

Yes, I do have plans to do a Ka-50 inspired gunship, but its not at the top of the list. The list isn't fixed as I do tend to just sit down and start on whatever I fancy, but several other things are more attractive at the moment. Keith does try to steer me in directions that suit his long term release plans. That's the good thing about our arrangement, he mostly likes whatever I get round to doing, but puts no pressure on me.

Comrade Burton
Buzzard Design Bureau/Ancient Buzzard

Less typing please comrade…

More mouse clicking…..I hear the salt mines need some help…:)

Lots of good feedback and comrade Andrew has answered a lot of them, however as he said lots of opportunity for add ons for this, more so as it seems to be very popular. The beauty of Andrews designs are how modular they are. This helps massively with changing and creating extras for them such as the jet nozzles. I'll go through the suggestions and come up with some options and see what people think, brass etching is another option for extra detail and myself and Andrew will work on that. It will also prove useful for a bunch of other ideas :)

Thanks all

Keith

Not sure in how far it's a viable alternative to brass etched rotors but I've read somewhere acrylic is available in 0,5mm thickness.

That's 50mm or 2" thickness to scale. Not sure how tick a actual helicopter rotor blade is supposed to be but that doesn't seem a bad ball park.

Not sure either if it wouldn't be too fragile or too flexible for this purpose.

But it might just be something to consider as an alternative to brass etching…

Trojan Points

Yes thanks, laser cut acrylic is definitely a viable option for the Ka231. Having tried a rough double stacking of acrylic on a stand-in model, somehow it just doesn't look right for the Ka131, especially if the two disks aren't exactly parallel. On a single rotor, or two on a Chinook, no problem. The other thing is the large disk of acrylic makes figure placement more problematic, no chance of reaching in between rotors.

Andrew

I wasn't thinking disks (I assume you mean transparent disks with a whirly rotor painted on) but just the rotor (hub and individual blades). But not sure if it won't be too flimsy.

They look great, both as jet and rotor. Save a bunch of money for a med tech force having the same ship with the different engines!

I really like the design ethos.

The Ka131 with the skid would be perfect for my campaign.

Thanks all for the ideas

Work has begun on options for jets. The weapons will be optional and Im thinking on different rotors. Ill only distribute one, however it will have to be strong enough and castable

thanks to Comrade Burton as always

Keith

Looking fine. One further idea in regard of the nose pod. Do not center it on the nose but offset it to the right or left side. My girlfriend said it looks like Rudolph the reindeer with the big snout in the middle and since then when I look at it the name gets stuck…

I would vote for the offset radome also or perhaps underslung like a Nimrod.

Love the prop version, definitely will want one, get me down for a preorder if your taking them yet.

Cheers,
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
wargames.blog.co.uk

Loving the whole Kamov utility look however any chance of smoothing in the nose cone, looks a bit weird lumping a circular dome onto a squarish cross section, also can you blend in the bulges just before the wings, again looking a little too angular in my view. These are are purely personal whims but overall really like the idea and will be watching how these develop.

Any chance of a two wing four prop heavy payload lifter with a removable drop pod for either infantry, droid units or vehicles ? I'm thinking like the US army sky crane concept?

If possible I would leave side doors open or at least have an option to install door gunners

Really love these, with the ospreyesque lifter, really like the lower 5 blade option, would it be possible to do a two prop option similar to the bear heavy bombers and again reflecting the two prop Kamov technology.

Lovely stuff and definitely down for a couple when they are released

Any chance of a two wing four prop heavy payload lifter with a removable drop pod for either infantry, droid units or vehicles ? I'm thinking like the US army sky crane concept?

I'd TOTALLY be in for a quad-rotor tiltrotor, on the size of a C130 (or maybe a bit smaller)!!!

I'd also like a sleeker Tiltrotor (could be an Osprey model, could be an Osprey successor. I figure that the Osprey will end up serving for at least 50 years) and quadrotor for US/EU troops.

I have to say I love the quad heavy lift option!

I'll also look at the nose, maybe changing the shape rather the anything as I'm rather fond of it….

Quads though…..possibly a version that carries a Btr 290…

That would be a fine thing

Kamov 27 showing rear hatch for potentrial door gunner and the underslung radar configuration, this is crying out for a chin turret adaptation……go on you know you want to….

helis.com/database/model/38

link

Cheers

Thanks johnd boy

Good to meet you at salute:)

All good ideas!

Being looked at!

Heavy lifter/bomber/gunship/dropship sounds pretty neato.

Quad rotor sounds about right for some mega-mech transport. ;)

Ahem, may I offer this into the fray as inspiration gentlemen……look rather cool in 15mm methinks slightly modernised perhaps to tie in, but keeping the overall aesthetic with a drop pod slung underneath.

The Russian Mil 10

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-10

link

Thing is with this you could have various options. Generic troop pod/ IFV transport/ gunship pod (think DC3 Puff the dragon options with automated chain gun mounts along the side as well as missile battery)

Johny Boy

Have you been hacking the BDB design computers?

Yes the Mil-10 has been on my list for a while as a source of inspiration. As for cargo/passenger pods, definitely a variety to go with this, as well as the Ka241 ( Ka231's four rotor big brother), and a hush-hush project that's in the pipeline (so secret in fact Keith hasn't been told yet!). Hopefully Keith will be able to reveal some prototype pictures in a few weeks, as unfortunately real life has rather decimated my 3D modelling time recently, and I've not made as much progress as I'd have liked.

In response to some of the other points in this thread;

* Open door for gunner etc for the Ka131 and Ka231 in development.
* Correct shape props for the Ka231 progressing well.
* Sensor pods for Ka131 being roughed out.
* Smoothing of nose will make the angles that appeared in the initial design renders less obvious.

Andrew

(Comrade Burton/Ancient Buzzard)