"Star Trek Attack Wing, Wizkids got me again!" Topic
30 Posts
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WeeSparky | 29 Mar 2014 11:58 p.m. PST |
I just recently got int Star Trek Attack Wing with my gaming buddy. I was kind of hopeful as the mechanics make "accidental" cheating difficult and while spendy, only a figures are needed. It plays like Pirates of the Spanish Main; simple, fast, and building "different" fleets is quickly done by swapping out crew and equipment cards. I thought I was getting into it early enough that all the earlier releases were still readily available so that I did not have to compete with my buddy and his propensity to use his larger disposable income to buy rare and overpowered gaming items off of ebay. The basic set and all the ships released are available at the FLGS, no problems, things were going well. We split the cost of the basic set and divided up the ships. I took the Klingon vessel, he happily chose the Fed ship, and the Dominion ship would be used if we found a third or as a loaner/shared use ship. I started buying more Klingon vessels and he began voraciously scouring the interwebs for extra equipment cards and colored bases. Tonight he pulls out his Federation Attack Squadron base of fighters. "Huh?" I say. "When did they come out with fighters?" Looks like Wizkids did a bunch of ships and cards that were released only at store events that are now only available on the secondary market at collectors prices. The kicker is that one of the limited release ships was a Klingon Bird of Prey with some pretty cool equipment/crew cards. Now all I can do is wait until my buddy picks up the similarly rare limited release Fed ship that will undoubtedly be overpowered and the source of many defeats. This is like Pirates of the Spanish Main and Mechwarrior clix all over again, both of which we no longer play due to the power creep and ccg scarcity pricing model. I thought that Star Trek was different. All of the ships and equipment were clearly packaged, and one only needed to pick up the ships/cards that they wanted to use. It looked like the ships/equipment/crew were balanced, and there were no rare or overpowered uber units that had to be hunted down on ebay. Shame on me, this is the third game they have done this to me with. I have no one to blame but myself. So if anybody has a spare "Black Pearl" PotSM ship from the Pirates of the Caribbean expansion, I am still looking for one. |
McWong73 | 30 Mar 2014 3:09 a.m. PST |
X Wing had avoided all that, give that a go. |
cpt shandy | 30 Mar 2014 4:38 a.m. PST |
why play with anyone who does power gaming? why not mutually agree to a scenario and a frame for the forces to use? guess i'm naive, but that's how i game. |
CPBelt | 30 Mar 2014 4:44 a.m. PST |
Why get mad at Wizkids? You don't have to play at home with those limited edition figs. I used to play Wizkid games with a buddy like this who would always outspend me because I didn't have much money. He would buy cases of figures and scour eBay, like this guy. I wised up and found a new friend. So get mad at your buddy for being a jerk who likes to spend money so he can pound you into the ground while feeling superior. Friends don't do that to.each other. |
GoneNow | 30 Mar 2014 4:53 a.m. PST |
Yeah I agree that this doesn't sound so much like a problem with the game but rather who you have decided to play it with. |
Maddaz111 | 30 Mar 2014 5:25 a.m. PST |
I suppose buying the odd expensive ship is beyond your means? If I buy anything like this I always expect it to be a biggest spender wins
heroclix, mechwarrior, mage knight, crimson skies, I played quite a bit of mechwarrior, even playing in a couple of events at gen con UK. I was the player who played magic who didn't play miniature games "?" It was sealed, I managed to get a 300 point force out of my boxes that was almost tip top
. and played to a draw on the top table
lots of decent prizes
. So I now had a crate of unique and prize mechs
and no local players would play
as they had no way of jumping to my level of play
I built matched pairs of armies
and then offered choice of army to the guest player.. (I at least got to play this way) Wizkids. Are playing the pay to win game
all closed systems seem to do it
the figures of a warhamster army are priced by GW not according to production cost, but value in game
Some FOW seem to follow the same pricing structure
Whilst it was possible to be competitive without rares in magic
it meant you lost more games than you won
especially against the uber netdeck. If you enjoy play, then let him win, it's the playing that is important.. if you want to enjoy winning play a non constructable competitive boardgame. If you only have this one gamer friend then value him, if you have other friends then get them to play as well. (Kingmakering in games can be good fun, especially if you can gang up on the power gamer once in a while
) If it really is getting to you big time
just tell him that his spending power is,breaking your enjoyment of the game, and playing non promo figures half the time is what you want
and if he cannot accept that you are going to sell off your figures and stop playing the game
Sorry for this sounding a bit ranty
but been there and done that.. in fact I have been on both sides at one time or another
And Friendships are more important than winning or losing any silly little game. |
TheBeast | 30 Mar 2014 5:46 a.m. PST |
One other point: Organized Play uses 'Admiral Orders'. Some of these adjust some imbalances, though more for the munchkin race mixers. If he brings OP ships, he should know the AO's that go with them. However, I haven't played them, but don't recall the fighters being uber-bashers. Still, all of the above posters speak true, and I think you'd be happier playing these as scenario specific. Wait, you got Fed, Klink, and a *Dominion* in your starter? Not a Rom? Doug |
Murphy | 30 Mar 2014 5:49 a.m. PST |
Power gamer – he wants to win
.to him "winning" – "fum". Perhaps you should say "Hey remember the other game systems we got out of because of the "power creep" that didn't make it enjoyable anymore? Well guess what, and ummm
guess what you are doing?" Then make an agreement that when you play, unless agreed upon previously, you use "no new odd special collectors ships/etc." Straight stock stuff, and that's it
. |
VonTed | 30 Mar 2014 6:01 a.m. PST |
If he cleans your clock with his force
swap sides and replay. If you crush him with his ships, maybe he'll wake up to the idea that gaming an over powered list isn't fun for the other guy
. |
Chef Lackey Rich | 30 Mar 2014 7:01 a.m. PST |
WizKids games run on the strength of their tourney environment, and tourneys draw power gamers. Just the way it is, especially with fairly high-value prizes involved. I sold out on the game entirely a while ago, in large part because their are serious balance issues with it that are only getting worse with time. Only a few of the problems involve the Organized Play stuff (for ex, Ch'Tang isn't as good as it looks at first, although Martok 9 and Barrage of Fire are quite good), most of it stems from crossfaction shenanigans and their rigidly sticking to the cost = 2 x stats formula for ships. The upcoming Borg finished off any interest I had in the game – 360 firing arcs are a death knell for a game that was about maneuvering. The tourney ships are readily available online, albeit at fairly high prices. Most of them aren't really worth buying (I think I played with the four I won maybe twice total) but you can do some nutty builds with the cards in a few of them. Romulan Pilot, Ferengi EM Pulse, to a lesser degree Barrage of Fire, those are all very strong. The participation prize stuff is much cheaper, and arguably more interesting, especially the Flagship cards and Command Tokens. |
Dynaman8789 | 30 Mar 2014 8:31 a.m. PST |
Why do people fall for this kind of gimmick? |
Ron W DuBray | 30 Mar 2014 9:37 a.m. PST |
nothing is stopping you from making your own ship cards and using other companies minis or making your own. :) |
Parzival | 30 Mar 2014 10:09 a.m. PST |
Play only pre-established, balanced scenarios with pre-picked forces. That prevents the "surprise" super unit. This is in fact one of the reasons I don't do WizKids games or blind CMG or CMG with "convention only" units. They don't appeal to me, and the type of player who trots these units out only for himself to play with doesn't appeal to me either. I don't blame WizKids, nor does their approach to this surprise me. They're Topps' little imprint now, and that entire company is built on the "rare collectible" concept where customers are expected to buy unreasonable amounts of figures or cards (or whatever) to find that one that they "need" to "complete" their collection (or, in the case of a game, build the "unbeatable" deck/force. So even though WK is at least offering their (crappy) Star Trek models as see-before-you-buy product, it doesn't surprise me at all that they would still "rig" the game in favor of rare or relatively unique "must have" units. All of which together is why I don't buy their products and haven't pursued this game (though, to be honest, the poor and out-of-scale models and paint jobs have way more to do with that decision). I echo the comment regarding X-Wing. Not only do the movement mechanics make more sense for a fighter-based game, there are no unobtainable units (well, except for FFG's pathetic distribution system), all the units are equivalently priced, and no unit is a game killer. Also, my personal playing philosophy is that my fleets are for my entire group to play, not just me. For example, I own the Millennium Falcon model, and I don't think I've piloted it in any game we've played together. Our last get-together featured a new B-wing, two new TIE-bombers, and the new Lambda Shuttle, and I didn't fly any of them. Yeah, I want to win, but I'm there to have fun with my friends, not crush them
well, unless I can. |
CPBelt | 30 Mar 2014 10:25 a.m. PST |
I echo the comment regarding X-Wing. Not only do the movement mechanics make more sense for a fighter-based game The game reflects The Dominion War battles perfectly, where capital ships fly like fighters and go down in a couple of hits. I think either people have forgotten those late shows from DS9 or never really watched that part of the series, being stuck in TNG or TOS battles which look like grannies in walkers compared to Dominion War battles. Fear the Breen! BTW I don't play either game, preferring Wings of War WWII when I want a fighter game. |
Parzival | 30 Mar 2014 11:47 a.m. PST |
The game reflects The Dominion War battles perfectly, where capital ships fly like fighters and go down in a couple of hits. I'll concede that, being a fan of DS9 myself. Though I also note that the DS9 battles are absurd, though great TV. (For that matter, the Star Wars battles are equally absurd, though great cinema. So it's a moot point.) BTW I don't play either game, preferring Wings of War WWII when I want a fighter game. I love WoW/WoG WWI myself. But though the X-Wing/ST:AW system is based on WoW/WoG, it has a very different nature in terms of play, as well as tactical considerations that are unique and challenging, not the least of which being the differentiation of pilot skill and the ability to customize the ships with unique upgrade combinations. In WoW/WoG a Fokker Dr.1 is a Fokker Dr.1, no matter who the pilot is. The fact that it says "Baron von Richtofen" and is bright red has no bearing whatsoever on the unit's maneuver or combat capability in play. In X-Wing, Luke Skywalker is a very different pilot from Wedge Antilles, bringing different skills and abilities to his craft. Though both are flying X-wings, you don't play them in quite the same way. Even a generic Red Squadron pilot is different from a generic Rookie. So just because it's an X-wing or an A-wing or a TIE fighter doesn't mean it behaves or plays the same as any other similar craft on the board. "Who" it is makes a difference as to what it can do, and to how the player needs to approach controlling or combating the craft. Add to that, the more random factors of combat makes a difference as well. I will admit that I am not familiar with the WWII version of WoW/WoG, but I gather that though different in play from the WWI game, the generic quality of the pilots and crafts remains intact? |
jowady | 30 Mar 2014 3:33 p.m. PST |
Don't hate the game, hate the playah as they say. I had a friend who always played the winning side in historical,he always had overwhelming force in anything else. No one plays with him anymore. He even gets cheats for video games, I'm surprised his computer still plays with him. Were already planning a big reunion campaign for around Christmas. Someone asked if we were going to invite Nick. We all had a good laugh. I'm sure you can find someone else to play against who will respect force balance or VP balance. |
CorSecEng | 30 Mar 2014 8:32 p.m. PST |
The problem is Wizkids more then the power gamer. It's not a blind package the issue is the over powered items in the OP event packs. THose are limited runs and your only going to see 3 or 4 in a region even with guys snatching them off ebay. So scarcity drives cost up. As far as I understand it, they have no intentions of releasing those ships for retail. It doesn't make any sense for this style of game but I think Wizkids has some bad habits and didn't adjust. At least with blind packaging you expect the other guys to have more if they spend more but this is a case of the power ships being only LE models that are impossible to buy. Come late to the game and your done. I have to be involved in the game to some extent but I'm not touching it at all. Not even buying it for research purposes. FFG does have some problems but mainly for their lack of tournament support and sluggish/random release schedule. I know why they are slow and the product is better for it but we need more content between waves. Special OP campaigns or something. Special tokens and range rulers are ok and some people want to collect them but it makes it hard for that system to keep up with Attack Wing. Not sure who is doing the dragon game based on this system but we can expect similar if Wizkids is involved. Yet another token set that needs to be made in 4 different colors
I need a bigger stock room. |
OSchmidt | 31 Mar 2014 7:09 a.m. PST |
What you're playing is not a game, you're a minor character in the ego-trip production of your friends mind. Let me cut through all the sound and fury above. Friends do not do this to friends. Gentlemen do not do this to gentlemen. One of the attributes of a game is persons join in a voluntary association under conditions of presumed equality to have fun. The game is composed of a select subset of the rules of reality but not all rules and is separate from really, and reality itself intrude into the game. Further each person is free to abandon and abrogate the game at any time at pleasure and this withdrawl has no effect on the reality out of which the game is drawn. Thus, the greater prosperity of your friend who can amass these forces makes it not a game. |
Intrepide | 31 Mar 2014 8:01 a.m. PST |
"What you're playing is not a game, you're a minor character in the ego-trip production of your friends mind. Let me cut through all the sound and fury above. Friends do not do this to friends. Gentlemen do not do this to gentlemen." Beautifully stated. I see this all the time in MMORPGs, at every level of the game, even the roleplaying. Wargaming is not war. It is gaming, a form of play. Play gives everyone their moment in the sun, or at least the chance of it, and it remains fun and cooperative. Or it dies. |
John Sowerby | 31 Mar 2014 10:00 a.m. PST |
The OP ships are not overwhelming, and some of them are rather mediocre. They are not the be all and end all, particularly as more and more ships come out. Although the Designer said that the game was designed to allow cross faction play, as per the rules, it is meant to be agreed upon by all players before choosing forces. Probably the most effective Captain (Picard) came in the starter. |
WeeSparky | 31 Mar 2014 2:19 p.m. PST |
Thank you all for your guidance. I would like to clarify what my actual issue is though; I don't mind playing with ungentlemanly gamers or power gamers if they are adhering to the rules. The collectible nature of the game is frustrating to me, but my gaming buddy is only utilizing his resources to field legal units. My problem is that there is another Klingon ship out there that I cannot get, and I wants it! The stats on the ship are not super special or overpowered (one of the cards that comes with it is nice though. The model is not a special sculpt or unique paint scheme. I don't need the ship to win or to field a more effective force, I just want it to complete my collection. I thought that I was both getting into a game that did not do the "limited release" rare model business plan, and that I was getting in early enough that all of the models were still readily available at retail. I feel betrayed by Wizkids. The kind of betrayal that can only be assuaged with a limited availability Klingon Bird of Prey. |
Chef Lackey Rich | 01 Apr 2014 6:13 a.m. PST |
You can get the Ch'Tang by spending $50 USD-60 on ebay, and that usually comes with the full participation prize stuff from the tournament kit for that month as well. The bidding rarely exceeds that level even now, although it will continue to creep up over time. Your local store might also still be able to order the OP2 prize kit from WizKids, it was still available as of early last month. Although they aren't supposed to resell the components, many stores do and WizKids doesn't police it at all well. More legitimately, they could order a kit or two and run the tourneys properly so you could just try winning one (I managed it twice locally myself). Or you could volunteer to run the tourney for them, and get a Ch'Tang that way – there are three in each kit, one for 1st and 2nd place and one for the TO. I agree that the prize ships should have been previews, not LEs, but that's not how WizKids rolls. Collectors will happily pay 3-4 times the price of a normal ship for an LE. Non-collectors who aren't playing tourneys can easily buy the identical Ch'Tang model from the Clix range (runs about $4 USD on ebay), rebase it, and play with printed copies of the cards. |
John Sowerby | 01 Apr 2014 8:36 a.m. PST |
CLRich has a good point, and copies of the cards are available from the Boardgamegeek page for the game. |
TheBeast | 01 Apr 2014 11:27 a.m. PST |
I would like to clarify what my actual issue is though
I think we got that. We were trying to soften the blow, such that it is. One more attempt and I'll give up
I will point out that the 'rarity' is not from the usually 'let's put out a few and drive demand', or even FFG's 'we'll be cautious, COA with the big guys, even though these things are flying off the shelves when sold proper
' These are rewards for participating at 'organized play'. Rewards for generating community, which I think is a good thing, and one thing FFG demonstrates the occasional massive fail. They are also rewards to brick-and-mortar. Rewards for being more than Barnes-and-Noble who sell without having a place to play, or Target, without even the occasional playing counter monkey to talk to. FFG product on sale at Target when we couldn't order any
I sometimes shake my head at things Wizkids does. They often get it wrong, but they do try, and get it more right than most. *shrug* Okay, that's being silly; game stores are few and far between. Most product is ordered on line, if you need to learn how, there's always YouTube, and, if you want community, there's TMP
Sorry for going on. Doug |
Chef Lackey Rich | 10 Apr 2014 7:52 p.m. PST |
These are rewards for participating at 'organized play'. Rewards for generating community, which I think is a good thing, and one thing FFG demonstrates the occasional massive fail. That's a very good point, although I'm sure it's still frustrating for people who don't have a FLGS running OP events. For anyone who cares, the teasers for the next STAW wave are out, and (while they display some worrisome power creep issues) they certainly make the "hot" tourney prize stuff a lot less impressive by comparison: link link link link |
John Sowerby | 11 Apr 2014 10:20 a.m. PST |
I'm not certain about the power creep as of yet. I willing to wait, and try the miniatures when they come out, and see. |
underling | 16 Apr 2014 11:27 a.m. PST |
As I've been playing in the OP events since last fall, I thought I'd add a little to what has already been said. I missed OP1, but from OP2 through OP6 everyone who participated in an OP got the resource for that particular OP. Command tokens, flagship cards, two different types of fighters, etc
In addition, each OP featured a non-commercially available ship that was available usually to the first and second place players at a given OP. Regarding the resources and prize ships, you certainly don't need them to play, and there are a lot of differing opinions on just how good they are in putting together a force list. I've used each resource at one time or another, and have settled on the fighters as the resource I enjoy playing the most. Not to be competitive, but just because I enjoy having a fighter flight on the table. There has been talk that the prize ships will possibly be available at some point in time as a renamed versions of how they came as prizes. This is just speculation at this point in time. For more info (than you probably want
:)), I'd suggest boardgamegeek.com. The community there is extremely active on a daily basis, and can more than likely help you out with any resources or prize ships you'd like to pick up. Kevin |
underling | 17 Apr 2014 10:04 a.m. PST |
Oh, I thought I'd add one more thing. With respect to this: "Now all I can do is wait until my buddy picks up the similarly rare limited release Fed ship that will undoubtedly be overpowered and the source of many defeats." As a Fed player, I can assure you with a relatively high level of certainty that there are no Fed ships, limited release or otherwise, that are overpowered. ;) Kevin |
Chef Lackey Rich | 18 Apr 2014 7:03 a.m. PST |
As a Fed player, I can assure you with a relatively high level of certainty that there are no Fed ships, limited release or otherwise, that are overpowered. ;) True, Sutherland is one of the weakest of the prize ships and Feds have faced an uphill struggle against the cloaking races so far. OTOH, the new Voyager/Intrepid class is huge shot in the arm for them. The baseline stats are rock solid, there are even more first-rate crew upgrades to pick from, and (expensive as it is) Ablative Generator is a game-changer in terms of durability. Couple that with the way the general increase in high attack dice ships and upgrades are weakening cloak and the metagame is due for a shift. Shield users are better at surviving single large alpha strikes than cloakers, especially when they're running to 3-4 agility with Paris or Sulu. Not overpowered, but the cloak vs shield balance is sliding in the right direction – just in time to meet the Borg "who cares about firing arcs" problem. |
underling | 18 Apr 2014 8:48 a.m. PST |
Yep, I agree with everything you said. I've been using the Enterprise D as the number one ship in all of my Fed builds (I've been playing pure builds eventhough our local group doesn't require it), and the Voyager may end up replacing it. I've haven't gotten the chance to play any games using the transphasic torps yet, so I'm kind of curious to see whether they're going to be worth it for the points. I really like playing the game, but I've got mixed feelings about the direction it's going. In OP5 and OP6 I played semi-swarm Klingon and Cardassian pure builds respectively, and had limited success. One rated captains in this game seem to have a shorter "life expectancy" than they do in X Wing. With the greater discrepancy in attack dice versus agility dice than X Wing, the game seems to be more about the dice and a little less about the flying. Not always, but moreso than in X Wing. Along with this, I'm also finding that the game seems to be more about the build. A reasonably solid list and good flying will only get you so far, and then it seems to come down to particular upgrades that can really make a big difference, and be hard to overcome. We'll see how the Borg OP turns out, but I'm thinking that the true fun of this game will end up being more casual play, with scenarios featuring ship builds that have a few less gimmicks. Kevin |
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