ethasgonehome | 16 Nov 2002 1:59 a.m. PST |
Spare a thought in the latest poll for the passing of the word "umpire", much loved by some but ousted by a term from roleplaying. Why replace a perfectly decent, useful and respectable word with an abbreviation of two words? Is this a GW thing? I initially thought the poll was about roleplaying! Proof enough that its intent and message was lost. |
Tshannon | 16 Nov 2002 2:56 a.m. PST |
I've been called the referee (called a few people that too. Didn't get punched). Though I have had a few names for the guy running things that I really shouldn't repeat here. Come to think of it, I got called a few of those names myself. ;) |
The Lost Soul | 16 Nov 2002 3:08 a.m. PST |
I think an umpire and a GM are not the same thing. An umpire is a referee that adjudicates rules problems between sides with impartiality. A GM organizes a situation for his players to solve. Less of a competition, more of a Kriegspiel. When I organize games where the players are all on the same side (as in HQ training in the military) and where the opposition is umpire driven, this is gamemastering. Umpiring is more a thing of competition wargames (you know, the kind of football wargame, 1000 points each side, where Napoleon and Wellington agree beforehand to use equal armies on fair ground). That was my 2 cents of wisdom. Patrick
|
Strahearn | 16 Nov 2002 5:28 a.m. PST |
Being an RPer myself, the term "GM" confused me as well. A "referee" or "umpire" would've been pretty clear, but I don't think I've ever seen or played in a pure wargame with a gamemaster (as I see the term). I've played in, and run, a couple of mixed RPG/wargame campaigns, which did have a GM, but those were oddities and exceptions: normally a wargame campaign around here (whenever one happens, about once in a century or so) is built to operate without the need for a GM or any other arbitrating factor other than the players involved. On the whole, I think recent polls have been rather poorly defined, just like all real-life demographic/research surveys (even the ones done by Respectable Survey Businesses and various universities). I know the polls on TMP aren't even meant to be more than a bit of fun and very rough indicators of general trends within the readership, but a sentence or two defining the terms used shouldn't be overly taxing. For example, in the recent boardgame poll a clearer stance on the overlap between board and miniature games would've been nice, as I often play wargames with hexmaps and miniatures. Or hexmaps and counters. Or a mix of two. Or "miniature" tabletop wargames with counters. And, occasionally, Settlers of Catan. %-) Ah, I think this will do nicely for my daily quota of whining about stuff. :-P |
Editor in Chief Bill | 16 Nov 2002 7:00 a.m. PST |
Interesting questions. Gwindel, what about the situation halfway between? That is, when a person "organizes a situation for his players to solve" (in this case, a two-side scenario) and then "adjudicates rules problems between sides with impartiality." Also, another in-betweener: The umpire/GM/referee who manages entertainment value rather than fairness. That is, if one side is stomping the other side, he introduces reinforcements for the losing side to "re-balance" the game. That also seems to cross the "adjudicating only" role of the pure umpire. |
quirkworthy | 16 Nov 2002 7:28 a.m. PST |
"GM" isn't GW, it's from TSR's D&D. |
CorpCommander | 16 Nov 2002 7:41 a.m. PST |
TSR prefered Dungeon Master or DM. I think it was Games Designers Workshop that pushed GM or Games Master in their Traveller game. I've been playing games for 25 years and that is how I remember it going. Also, the use of the term umpire was still in vogue with Dragon Magazine at least into the mid 1980's. I don't think Umpire is exactly useful in describing what the scenario host does in a miniatures game. |
Editor in Chief Bill | 16 Nov 2002 7:45 a.m. PST |
Being worried that I had single-handedly killed the word "umpire" with the recent poll :-) I made a quick check of various miniature wargaming mailing lists, and I see that the trend started without me. I also see people using awkward terms like "gamemaster/referee" which perhaps suggests that many of us are uncomfortable with terms here. umpire - sounds like someone who makes impartial judgments, but not the scenario designer, event host, or chief entertainer referee - same gamemaster - sounds like someone who has a lot of control ("mastery") over gameplay; true enough for RPG's but less so for most miniatures games. Anyone care to invent a new term? (Or reintroduce an old and forgotten one?) And a reminder: Since role-playing games descend directly from miniatures games, the term gamemaster (GM) probably originated as a wargaming term. (Can anyone verify that?) |
Dr Mathias | 16 Nov 2002 8:19 a.m. PST |
One time I was running a game, and one of the guys playing spouted "You're a bad DM". "What did you say?" I asked. His response was: "I said 'Auntie Em, Auntie Em'". |
50 Dylan CDs and an Icepick | 16 Nov 2002 8:21 a.m. PST |
No matter what you call it, I think most players around the table would recognize the beast as the guy to whom they all turn when they are arguing about whether the 31st Brobdingnagian Fusiliers can pivot that extra 1/16th of an inch and thus get a flank attack against the Lilliputian 50th Light Ski Armored BDE... Even in a well-oiled club of friends, it's useful to have a third party arbiter. (Hey, maybe "Arbiter" is the New/Old term we could use.) In role-playing back in the 1970s they used to call him the "Judge," after all. |
rmaker | 16 Nov 2002 8:44 a.m. PST |
the Editor wrote: "Since role-playing games descend directly from miniatures games, the term gamemaster (GM) probably originated as a wargaming term. (Can anyone verify that?)" Yes. In the old Twin Cities group, the terms "referee" and "gamemaster" (usually shortened to "ref" and "GM") were used pretty much interchangeably. Armeson did the same while running early sessions of what became D&D. Gygax always insisted on "DungeonMaster tm", largely because it could be trademarked. |
DJCoaltrain | 16 Nov 2002 9:23 a.m. PST |
Because I've been playing games since...well, let's just say TVs were all B&W. Prior to 1970, we used the words, umpire, referee, and .... other words/phrases that are generally taboo on this forum. In the 75-78 time frame D&D started to assert itself and the phrase Dungeon Master (DM) began to surface. Unfortunately, TSR proved to be more litigious, bellicose, and threatening about protecting turf/rights than HMGS-East, (it generally happens in a corporation with scads of money, delusions, and paranoia) and gamers needed a phrase for that omnipotent person at the end of the table. They settled on the phrase Game Master (GM). GM had the merit of being a general enough phrase that was not solely limited to the RPG part of TGWAG. Therefore, GM became popular. Now having said that, I much prefer the phrase "Host" to describe the function of the person running the event. But, GM will do nicely, and it is the current acceptable phrase. Just my $.02 worth.
|
ethasgonehome | 16 Nov 2002 9:50 a.m. PST |
To follow up Bill's comments, I did indeed read referee/umpire as being impartial judges, and a games master as being someone who creates a situation and runs the game, not necessarily impartially. The nuances are such that I consider games master and referee/umpire to be entirely different. In editing, I moved towards referee as a preferred term because it is genderless, which neither host nor games master succeed at being, as well as being short and a term that is instantly understood by anyone (compare Hogshead Games' Nobilis and its far more oblique term of Hollyhock God, for instance). Don't get me on the use as GM for games mistress (that's someone who gets you to jog up and down on the spot) or a game mistress (who is an obliging lover). :-) My use of GW in the original post was also entirely intentional - a two-letter abbreviation that no one understands. :-) |
The Virtual Armchair General | 16 Nov 2002 11:29 a.m. PST |
Dear All, I first encountered "Games Master" in 1970, well before TSR, et al even existed. At that time, its use was in relation to the the fellow (with a crew of helpers) who ran a Fletcher Pratt Naval Wargame. The man I learned to use the term from had first played the game in the 1930's when it was published. In context, a GM is one who has designed the scenario and is the sole (or chief) "adjudicator" of the action and, where necessary, rules interpretations. Therefore, a GM is an "Artist" who must interpret what he sees happening (or envisioned before play), while a "Referee" or "Umpire" are more in the role of a "Mechanic" who, like a Judge, impartially restates or applies existing law ("the Rules"). Thus, I can guarantee that "GM" is NOT part of the world wide conspiracy to overcharge us by GW or others. I have never really used any other term, not least because even in my own provided definition, I know that NO ONE can be "impartial" when deciding between questions about rules or procedures--and least of all the fellow whose problem or scenario is involved. So, indeed, let us do away with the fiction of a "Referee" or "Umpire" and recognize that the Dude with the authority is mortal and only as effective as everyone in his game enjoyed themselves, win or lose. |
Tshannon | 16 Nov 2002 2:57 p.m. PST |
Actually, the 1st edition of GDW's Traveller refered to the GM as the 'referee' which seemed to under-describe the function in an RPG. GM works since it also stands for 'General Manager' which also describes the function in gaming to an extent. |
Tshannon | 16 Nov 2002 3:01 p.m. PST |
And why couldn't I have finished a thought in the same post? Just refer to GM as 'Game Manager', takes the whole 'master, I'm all powerful' connotation out of the description. |
The Lost Soul | 16 Nov 2002 3:49 p.m. PST |
Well, if you want to go really far, in the different rules designed to adjudicate kriegspiel results (19th century) the term was always umpire or referee (arbitre in french which is the language I use). And it was for games with hard binding rules (for which I would find the word appropriate) and for free-kriegspiel style (von Verdy du Vernois) where the umpire was to use his experience to adjudicate the results without binding rules (which would maybe be a more GMesque activity). And I certainly agree with the editor, there are so much ways to play wargames that there are more in-between situations than clear-cut. OK let's call me "God of the wargame table". Patrick |
John Armatys | 16 Nov 2002 5:29 p.m. PST |
Umpire/referee seems appropriate for someone umpiring a competition game. Gamemaster is a much better title for the person presenting a non-competitive game. I quite liked the title "moderator" in the poll, which brought thoughts of the occasional TV programmes (in the UK at least) on solving moral problems. |
Thomas Whitten | 16 Nov 2002 7:08 p.m. PST |
GM works for me. But I do give points for those players who refer to me as god. |
Jake B | 16 Nov 2002 7:58 p.m. PST |
To the best of my foggy recollection, every con I've ever attended where I've run a miniatures game or 2 (or 4) has issued me a badge that says "Game Master" or "GM." The term is already in widespread use for all gaming, and has become the standard preferred generic term for "person in charge" at many cons. I do remember when everyone said "DM" regardless of what RPG they were playing, and I was taken aback the first time I saw the term "GM" in print. "Umpire" seems to derive only from certain parts of the miniatures tradition, and is less useful for describing that role in all types of gaming. |
The Gonk | 16 Nov 2002 10:15 p.m. PST |
The groups I play with don't seem have a term for it, we just refer to "the person running the game." |
KSmyth | 16 Nov 2002 10:37 p.m. PST |
I've been a miniature gamer for a long time. I'm not sure it really matters what you call me. I'm the person in charge of the game--scenario maker, hole plugger, final arbiter. I run games with friends, convention games, heck--games with my sons. I have always considered myself the GM, by whatever name. Kevin |
ethasgonehome | 17 Nov 2002 6:47 a.m. PST |
I bet, Andy, that your groups also call beer a "tepid, bitter, brown alcohol-related liquid topped with froth". I admire the accuracy of your usage, but not the lack of brevity. :-) |
rmaker | 17 Nov 2002 4:02 p.m. PST |
DJCoaltrain wrote: "I much prefer the phrase "Host" to describe the function of the person running the event." We used "Game Master" rather than "Host", because the person running the game (the GM) wasn't necessarily the person at whose house the game was held (the Host). |
MaksimSmelchak | 18 Nov 2002 9:49 a.m. PST |
I'm really stuck on the term DM (Dungeon Master), which I believe D&D coined. I use the term so often that even in microarmor or other Sci-fi games, I tend to call the guy-in-charge the DM. The oddest thing is that I've never had anyone object to the term. Before D&D, the person-in-charge was usually called boss if I remember correctly. I sometimes use the newer term GM with younger groups. I wanted to vote DM on the poll, but it wasn't available. There also exists the term storyteller that games like Ars Magica, Vampire, and Werewolf use. It might be Saga teller or somesuch. Cheers, Maksim-Smelchak. |
The Virtual Armchair General | 18 Nov 2002 12:37 p.m. PST |
Well, let's spice the stew with reference to GM's/DM's/Referees/Umpires also being called "G.O.D.('s)." It was the short term for "Grand Old Dumpire(s)," which both satisfies the ego of The Man, and the attitude of his players. I'd buy THAT for a dollar! |