Tango01 | 28 Mar 2014 10:51 p.m. PST |
"Four years ago, Poland was set to become the staging ground for advanced U.S. ballistic missile interceptors. But after the plan collapsed—and seeing defense budgets in the rest of Europe on the decline—Polish political leaders decided they needed their military to fend for itself. And now with an aggressive Russia bearing down on Ukraine, Warsaw is getting even more worried—and prepared. "The world stands on the brink of conflict, the consequences of which are not foreseen," Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk said shortly after Russia's Feb. 27 invasion of Crimea
" Full article here. link Amicalement Armand |
Tgunner | 29 Mar 2014 4:25 a.m. PST |
I don't blame them. Eastern Europe is becoming a "bad" neighborhood and NATO is looking rather useless right about now. Perhaps it's becoming time for Eastern Europe to form it's own military alliance against Russia? Western Europe doesn't take Putin and Russia seriously, not officially anyway. But then again, they don't live next door to him either! |
korsun0 | 29 Mar 2014 5:27 a.m. PST |
At least they can smell the roses
.. |
Redroom | 29 Mar 2014 7:47 a.m. PST |
Any modern Polish forces in 28mm or 15mm? I always thought they are poorly represented in the modern mini market, WWII seems to be picking up though. |
Mardaddy | 29 Mar 2014 8:36 a.m. PST |
You sleep in the bed you make. Eastern Europe relies on Russian oil & natural gas, until they get another source or find another way, Russia will have the economic thumb over them all to influence against forming any military alliance. |
Space Monkey | 29 Mar 2014 8:41 a.m. PST |
What kind of Polish name is 'Donald Tusk'? I wouldn't cross the street to buy pierogi from a guy named Donald! |
Tgunner | 29 Mar 2014 9:14 a.m. PST |
'Fraid not Redroom. But there are a lot of ways to proxy them. I also think Eureka has AK armed, but Westerned equipped, troops on their 300 club and it's over 500. So maybe we'll see them soon. |
Legion 4 | 29 Mar 2014 9:29 a.m. PST |
"
and seeing defense budgets in the rest of Europe on the decline—Polish political leaders decided they needed their military to fend for itself." I laud the the Poles for this
|
taskforce58 | 29 Mar 2014 9:33 a.m. PST |
Poland better be prepared – Oddzial Osmy is in Poland and I'd want them to keep producing their 1/600 models! |
RazorMind | 29 Mar 2014 9:44 a.m. PST |
Time for a Fistful of Tows scenario, gonna need a lot of T90s hah |
Zargon | 29 Mar 2014 10:27 a.m. PST |
Poland, the. battleground crossroads of east Europe, please! Took a week for the Germans last time. The only idiots who'll nibble at their integrity will be the West,NATO and allies, as for less reliance on gas and oil, hasn't the leader of the 'free' world gone on to see some chums in Saudi Arabia. could it be to help out with this dilemma? We all know them for being a free and democratic country if you ever saw one (accordingly !). Poland had more to fear from Timie long braids and her cohorts in Ukraine, skimming off the top on the oil supplied. I am not convinced about this who-ha a. Gaming wise 10mm may be an answer? ( Figures are fairly generic) I think people are going to have to proxy Polish forces in most scales, they're not an army that springs to mind about wanting to field. Don't know what rules for all these grand schemes to thrash the Big Bad Bear though ( proxy some Russian and German types and maybe FoF? Cheers |
David Manley | 29 Mar 2014 10:46 a.m. PST |
"it's becoming time for Eastern Europe to form it's own military alliance against Russia?" There is already one, and Poland is in it. Ukraine isn't. If your flag flies on the lawn outside the big office building on Boulevard Leopold III its extremely unlikely that Vlad will be coming to call. Still, a handy excuse to rattle the sabre anyway :) |
Tgunner | 29 Mar 2014 12:40 p.m. PST |
I don't know David. What forces could NATO put into the field? And would NATO find the
Intestional fortitude (?) to do anything? And if they do, does NATO have the ability, beyond using nukes, to stop Russia? Granted, Russia doesn't have ANYTHING like the forces she had during the Cold War, but then again, neither does NATO. Could NATO scrape up even a single armored division? Russia by last accounting has between 30,000 and 100,000 troops with several hundred AFVs near the Ukraine's eastern border. link That's a fairly healthy army corps, or a rather weak field army. The US by herself could match that. If we pull the money together, scrape units together, and if we have months to do it. That's too late to really be all that helpful and therapid deployment forces that we do have are too light to amount to much more than a speed bump. This is in Western Europe's back yard, but I doubt it could do much of anything.
NATO: Gen. Philip Breedlove, head of the U.S. European Command and military chief of NATO, hasn't put a number to the Russian force on Ukraine's border, but he says it's "very sizable." In remarks Sunday, he described Russia's snap military exercises as "worrisome," suggesting they had been used as a tool to bring Russian forces into a high state of readiness without prompting a NATO response. "A snap exercise puts an incredible force at a border. The force that is at the Ukrainian border now to the east is very, very sizable and very, very ready," he said. "You cannot defend against that if you are not there to defend against it. So I think we need to think about our allies, the positioning of our forces in the alliance and the readiness of those forces in the alliance, such that we can be there to defend against it, if required, especially in the Baltics and other places." Breedlove also voiced worries that Russian troops could roll into Ukraine's southwestern city of Odessa and Moldova's separatist region of Transnistria, on the opposite side of Ukraine. "There is absolutely sufficient force postured on the eastern border of Ukraine to run to Transnistria if the decision was made to do that," he said. The Strategy Page once dismissed the Russian Army as being a paper tiger. Actually I think that term more accurately describes NATO. link Game wise, I'm sticking with 15mm. I'm more a skirmish guy. I'm more into WWII and sci-fi
I might get around to this, eventually. My moderns are more aimed at a Pacific war anyway. But I do have about a weak Platoon of modern Russians who need some APCs and maybe a tank. Maybe I need to visit QRF and Geoff for some help. |
Tgunner | 29 Mar 2014 1:16 p.m. PST |
Oh, anyone have thoughts about doing a Bolt Action modern game? |
MajorB | 29 Mar 2014 2:43 p.m. PST |
And now with an aggressive Russia bearing down on Ukraine Really? "In an interview with state TV channel Rossiya 1 on Saturday, Mr Lavrov said: "We have absolutely no intention of – or interest in – crossing Ukraine's borders." " link |
Mako11 | 29 Mar 2014 3:26 p.m. PST |
From what I've read, Russian has an awful lot of armor in storage which might be made to work, if needed/desired. MB, they also said the same thing about Crimea, and took it, and a small Ukrainian peninsula, shortly thereafter, so you can't believe everything Putin says. |
GeoffQRF | 29 Mar 2014 4:31 p.m. PST |
Gen. Philip Breedlove
said "A snap exercise puts an incredible force at a border. The force that is at the Ukrainian border now to the east is very, very sizable and very, very ready" He also said: "It may simply be an effort to intimidate Ukraine
" and
NATO remains, after all, the largest and most successful military alliance in history""
"We have absolutely no intention of – or interest in – crossing Ukraine's borders." They also said the same thing about Crimea, and took it, and a small Ukrainian peninsula, shortly thereafter, so you can't believe everything Putin says. Not sure Putin ever said that before securing Crimea. Russia did deny sending any troops into Crimea, because the little green men were already there. They just moved about 6000 of them from Sevastopol to Belbek airbase, then flew them to the military airbase just north of Simferapol. Remember that, as far as Russia is portraying at least, no Russian military units were moved anywhere in Crimea until after Crimea had voted to join Russia. From that moment, from their perspective, it was no longer Ukraine so they could move troops at will. Bit harsh on the poor Crimeans, of course, who just became part of a Russian miltary base. :-) Lavrov's words are a very positive statement, unambiguous, statement; they will use all "political, diplomatic and legal means" to protect Russian speakers/citizens within Ukraine, but no military intervention. He got what he wanted, a naval base without having to pay for it. A major crossing into mainland Ukraine now would be a short term military gain, but long term political and economic suicide. |
Tgunner | 29 Mar 2014 6:35 p.m. PST |
I like Bolt Action because it reminds me a lot of FUBAR, just with a cleaner activation and vehicle combat system. I like Flames too but I save that for my boys.. It's the whole I-Go U-Go thing that turns me off. Force on Force is awesome. Go to Historicon and I'll teach you Kyote. It takes some getting use to, but I got my 5th Graders into it after a couple of turns. It really isn't as bad as it looks. That's the direction I'll go on my own and I'll use Bolt Action with my boys. |
tuscaloosa | 29 Mar 2014 7:14 p.m. PST |
"NATO is looking rather useless right about now" I disagree. The purpose of NATO is to defend NATO, and if a NATO state is attacked, it will be our collective security at risk. NATO is of course interested in what happens between Russia and Ukraine, but we have no obligation to, nor should we, defend Ukraine. "Poland, the. battleground crossroads of east Europe, please! Took a week for the Germans last time." Don't forget that the last time the Poles took on the Russians by themselves, the Poles thrashed the Russians and almost got to Moscow. I guarantee you neither the Russians nor the Poles have forgotten this. I suspect that in a (hopefully) hypothetical Pol+Ukr vs Russia conflict, there would be very low unit density, with a lot of mobility and deep movements. Actually, a lot like Russo-Polish War of 1920! |
Legion 4 | 30 Mar 2014 2:04 a.m. PST |
I believe based on recent events, NATO is still viable
If for no other reason than Putin and his crew still consider it in their "old school" calculations
Old habit die hard
|
MajorB | 30 Mar 2014 6:17 a.m. PST |
He got what he wanted, a naval base without having to pay for it. Sevastopol was already a Russian naval base before the recent "crisis". |
Pan Marek | 30 Mar 2014 6:42 a.m. PST |
|
GeoffQRF | 30 Mar 2014 8:17 a.m. PST |
It was a Russian base, but within Ukraine, under a lease agreement in return for which Ukraine got cheaper gas. By making it a base in Russia, there is no need for the deal, so a double win. |
Tgunner | 30 Mar 2014 10:44 a.m. PST |
I disagree. The purpose of NATO is to defend NATO, and if a NATO state is attacked, it will be our collective security at risk. But my point is defend it with what? A defensive alliance without a credible force to back it up is rather useless. QRF Geoff made a great quip at the British Army's expense about it not really being able to recreate a charge of the Light Brigade in the Crimea against the Russians
It would be the charge of the Light Platoom! Hey Geoff, if I was to create that in 15mm what would I use? Scimitars? I could use a light British tank platoon, but who uses them? Does 16 Brigade have them? |
GeoffQRF | 30 Mar 2014 11:36 a.m. PST |
link "The government intends to cut troop numbers in the regular army from 102,000 to 82,000 by 2020, while the newly renamed Army Reserve, formerly the Territorial Army, is expanded from 19,000 to 30,000." Charge of the Light Platoon is a good dig at those who continue to cut down the army on the basis that we don't need an army today (and haven't thought about tomorrow), but it's not two blokes and a rifle, yet. ;-) Hey Geoff, if I was to create that in 15mm what would I use? link link Scimtar, Spartan, Jackal and Coyote – we do have a Jackal, it's just not available yet :-) |
Tgunner | 30 Mar 2014 12:30 p.m. PST |
Thanks! I just did a little research of my own and found out that the 16th does have D Squadron of the Household Cavalry. So maybe a mixture of Scimtars and Spartins? are UK squadrons still company formations with 3-4 platoon sized troops? Or are they called platoons? |
Mako11 | 08 Apr 2014 1:04 p.m. PST |
On a related note, if the report is accurate, the USA doesn't have a single main battle tank in Europe anymore, so it appears the EU will be on its own for armored units. |
Tango01 | 08 Apr 2014 9:33 p.m. PST |
You are right my friend. You have to count with the French and German ones. Amicalement Armand |