" keeps gamers “out of money, but happy"" Topic

"The business engine that powers the empire is also brilliant; to play FoW you need an army of miniatures, which are made by parent company Battlefront. New armies and rule books are regularly released, continually expanding the scope of the game by adding new forces, equipment and scenarios, which in turn stimulates demand for new miniatures. It's a system that Phil says keeps gamers "out of money, but happy".

Pretty amazing he actually went and said it. I am sure the sales & PR people at Battlefront are making sure they lock Phil back in his cage now.

Full interview here:

link

They have no PR people. James, one of their sculptors and painters does PR on the side. This is why they blunder into these things continually. Just like it appears that they have no professional supply management people.

He also says "Before FoW your only choices were fantasy or sci-fi games"

Not sure what I was doing last millenium.

Not sure what I was doing last millenium.

There was Monopoly and Trouble.

So I wonder why nobody has applied this model to Ancients or Horse and Musket? Is it because those era's are just not that "sexy" compared to WW2?

Hahah – I can't see "PrivateSnafu" without hearing the accompanying music.
XD

The 100,000 number is interesting…. not as big as I hoped. Not a small as I feared :-)

He is just drinking from the corporate kool-aid. Every company has it.

When I worked at a CAD company, we were the best CAD company out there and everyone knew us, yet we were barely grossing over $10 USD mil. Now, I work for a documentation scanning company and we are "the best one out there", and again we are barely squeaking by, while there are other companies with larger budgets and employees and etc…

The problem for a company wanting to do a BF style assault on Ancients is that the sheer quantity of different models you would need makes the BF range look small.

It is interesting that there have been very few attempts to combine rules and miniatures from the same source for Ancients. Field of Glory sold in big numbers but there was no liked miniatures as such.

Keeping you "out of money, but happy" is the business model of…well, everything.

The problem for a company wanting to do a BF style assault on Ancients is that the sheer quantity of different models you would need makes the BF range look small.

War and Empire just finished their Kickstarter a month or so ago. This will put the theory to the test. There miniatures should be able to cover much of the classical periods from the Peloponnesian wars through the 3rd Punic war I think. They have a rules set coming out as well. So the bits are in place. I'll be watching this one with interest.

Every business has to stimulate new sales, or they go bust. I never understand why BF and GW get all the grief they do. You don't have to buy the new stuff ( unless you're a tourny player) just stuck with what you have.
I don't see why hey couldn't do it in a similar way to command and Colours. Start with Rome vs Barbarians. Then do Eastern enemies. There isn't that much difference between a Gaul, Briton and German for the casual gamer to care about. Same with eastern cataphract/ horse archer/levy foot armies. Early Rome (Carthage, Greek), middle Rome and late Rome.
Part of the whole problem with all historical is its just not easy to get into. Too many rules and few places to buy them from ( ie shops), then scattered figure makers. I am surprised foundry hasn't made a more determined effort to get into game stores. They certainly have the ranges. Zvedza seem to be doing well with their boxed games systems.

I've yet to meet a gamer who is prudent with their spending money or a miniatures company that isn't eager to get us to part with it.

"out of money, but happy." Reading that to mean out of disposable cash, as opposed to rent money, and still happy… Where's the flaw in that? We game to be happy, if having lots of toys makes me happy, how is that a crime? You could just paint up one army (like that's going to happen for any game) and be done with it. I seem to enjoy having choices and decisions to make when putting together my army lists.

I'd love Battlefront and FOW to do WW1 :D

Seems like their rules and stuff would work fairly nicely for that.

"There isn't that much difference between a Gaul, Briton and German for the casual gamer to care about."

Infamy, herasy, how can you say that…..

The colour of the dirt can vary significantly!

The colour of the dirt can vary significantly!

LOL

New armies and rule books are regularly released…which in turn stimulates demand for new miniatures

Well yeah, that's been the GW model for decades. It's all about Codex Creep and Planned Obsolescence.

Deparate Measures is all about making Soviets the latest greatest army, not historical accuracy on their abilities

Just wait to FoW Version 4…you'll be able to buy all the codexes again!

I wonder why nobody has applied this model to Ancients or Horse and Musket?

Napoleon at War is trying. They have "battalion boxes" and easy buying choices; they just don't have an active tournament scene.

People who like to collect things like to spend money on things they collect, whether it is toy soldiers, baseball cards, presidential campaign buttons, or anything else. It could have been worded a little better, but there is nothing nefarious going on.

I keep a sperate bank account just for my hobby expenditures. BF get's by far most of what I budget into that account. Easily 10 times what I put collectively into other wargames.

So if I'm "out of money" it's just my hobby fund that's depleted. Keeps me from dipping into the real household budget and lets me better plan my purchases.

I should clarify that I do not think the "out of money" comment was a blunder. Free market capitalism is great. I don't think anyone in their right mind would use money that was designated for necessities for toy soldiers. I think he was clearly talking about discretionary funds. I think the blunder is that they are so proud of their success that they can't see the article is unflattering.

I was hoping that BF would get into naval gaming. Perhaps "Scampi Wars".

Jenkins' Ear?

For all the hate directed at FOW, dontcha jes wish someone would do the same for your neglected era of choice – not to use their systems, or even models, but just to make it popular and kool?

Anyone with an interest in finding WW2 wargames opponents, or can now admit to be a wargamer at work, owes Battlefront a lot…

Not enough vehicles to make WW1 profitable for them.

There were only something like 20 German A7Vs made. I have the book here somewhere but if I recall they were all known and able to be tracked years later by their nicknames. So what do you buy for German vehicles after you create the whole WW1 tank force on a 1:1 scales? Sure you can use some captured British stuff but hopefully you get the point.

I would think they could make more money offering a good system of trench terrain than vehicles for WW1. Everyone gaming post 1914 Western Front needs them.

Not enough vehicles to make WW1 profitable for them.

But BF is starting into WW1 starting this year!

Not enough vehicles to make WW1 profitable for them.

There were only something like 20 German A7Vs made.

BF did do that fantasy tank release a few years back with vehicles that were mock-up or designs only back in WWII. I think they should do 15mm Steampunk!

I play with a lot of 3rd party models. If you buy PSC and Zveda models, its not really that pricey. Viet Nam and the Isreali/Arab stuff is not really my cup of tea.

In more breaking news today Battlefront NZ announced that all doorways in their Auckland offices were to be doubled in size to allow management to get their heads through them. The plan backfired when Management could not find the new doorway due to the mountain of returned goods with errors , miscasts,mis-packs and omissions.
On the plus side unfulfilled customer orders were down to $2,000,000 USD

I built two late war forces of about 1800 points, one US and one German. Many of the armored vehicles are PSC. I use these forces exclusively and haven't bought new stuff other than a soft cover campaign book (Blood, Guts & Glory) in probably two years.

I would buy their houses if I could get them w/o a subscription.

BF do in fact have a dedicated PR guy, Steve formerly of WWPD.
To say that James does PR is true, but only that he does his actual job of painting and sculpting things well…:)

BF do in fact have a dedicated PR guy, Steve formerly of WWPD.

Hasn't he left and gone back to the big apple for personal reasons !

TT,nice one.
LES

He also says "Before FoW your only choices were fantasy or sci-fi games"

Not sure what I was doing last millennium

People were playing war games before FoW launched in 2002; they just weren't playing the same one. In the niche world of war gaming this was a problem: in order to play someone outside of your gaming group, you had to agree on rules. FoW entered the scene with a polished and fun game, a full range of accurate and detailed models and, crucially, a rule set that allowed for tournament play. Now, people all over the world could come together to pit their tactical nous against each other. It immediately took off.

And the only genres that had "universally" used rules at that time were Warhammer and 40K. Sure you could play WWII games, but with what rules? Back then I would have suggested Command Decision or Arc of Fire. What would your suggestion have been then?

I have a 2K US RIFLE Company and a 2K SS PanzerGrenadier Company. Wanna play? I"ll even let you pick the scenario.

That's his point.

The problem with the BF & GW business models of new codexes equals more miniatures is that they continue to canibalize their existing customer base. Eventually, your customers get tired of their hard earned investments becoming obsolete & they jump ship. Witness the languishing of Warhammer Fantasy as an example. Maybe they get new kids to come in and buy their overpriced models, but to them it's a game, not a hobby, and their commitment doesn't last nor does it replace the losses being created.

I never understood why, instead of rejiggjng the existing rules and codexes, they don't just continually add to the line. BF appears to be doing this with the Vietnam & Arab-Israeli range, although I'm puzzled why they jumped over Korea. From there they can advance to more contemporary periods or go back to WWI. I think BF has seen GWs error and is making an effort to avoid it. GW has back stories for all kinds if other kingdoms but refused to touch them.

I think you'll find GW has researched this. Extra ranges don't equate to extra sales. Their main sales come from newcomers in their first couple of years, after that sales tail off. Girls and beer take priority. They are simply not interested in the likes of us who have large existing armies who may want to add the very occasional extra unit, and nor should they be if they want to stay solvent. Plus there is the issue of shelf space. The shops are already full, what would they reduce to put in the whole new range?

Tgunner,
There are several rulesets that reached International status. I am a long term Ancients player and I've played DBM in South Africa, Italy, Switzerland, Greece, Finland, Belgium, Portugal, USA, Australia, UK and New Zealand. I know it is/was played in France, Spain, Ireland, Holland, Norway, Canada, Germany etc. In it's day, 7th Edition and "Warrior" also had a wide reach.
The World is not the sole preserve of GW systems though I grant they do have a wide reach.

I always thought DBA and DBM were the big time in historicals… well before phil wrote the 40k clone Panzer Battles (or whatever it was) which was the predecessor for FoW.

Ever since I got out of the revolving door of armies…I've actually got money to spend on things.

Quitting flames of war was the best thing I ever did!

I buy the books, but I buy the miniatures from far cheaper sources.

One good thing about the "codex creep" with BF vs GW is that your old armies are just fine to play in V3. They may add a few more bells and whistles, but the core remains intact.
Unlike WFB where I had purchased about 150 Forest Goblins and found that in the new edition they did not exist.
The points cost for 10 T-34 tanks may go up or down, but the 10 T-34s are still good for your battalion.

"Oh, V3 gives me Speznaz options? OK. And the Katyushas are cheaper!"
I'm OK with that, since I like to paint and I don't have to buy BF figures to feel pure.

I admit that I am a FoW porn addict.

Yeah, the Flames of War stuff generally adds more options. It's not like where GW cans units or even entire factions (squats).

There's still the same platoons involved for the most part.

From a FLGS point of view, the problem with Flames is how much of the product line generally doesn't move. It seems to be just the newest products that turn quickly. Anything more than a year old doesn't really move unless someone is just starting out.

"I buy the books, but I buy the miniatures from far cheaper sources."

I only buy the books for the areas I am interested in, like
Russian Front, Western front, but not Italy or Africa.

"One good thing about the "codex creep" with BF vs GW is that your old armies are just fine to play in V3. They may add a few more bells and whistles, but the core remains intact."

One cannot argue with historical units that were actually there. You cannot make them just disappear (See: SQUATS in 40K).

"The points cost for 10 T-34 tanks may go up or down, but the 10 T-34s are still good for your battalion."

They can also be used for Mid AND Late War. I like that!

"I'm OK with that, since I like to paint and I don't have to buy BF figures to feel pure."

I did not realize that purity was the result of buying resin and metal miniatures. If that is the case I am in trouble as i have a mix of plastic (PSC), metal (OG) and a few resin and metal minis.

"I admit that I am a FoW porn addict."

Sorry OFM, I cannot help you on that. I though the FOW Art of War books were the ultimate in FOW porn.

What I can say about FOW is: It's fun to play, the rules are not that difficult (I did play ASL for many years) and it is not that hard to find opponents for a pickup game. I have played in a few tournaments, but I am not really into them myself.

Hey, true gamers have never been known for outstanding social/PR skills, and Phil really is a true gamer. I guarantee his comments were not meant to come across badly at all. You couldn't meet a nicer and more humble guy.

Just imagine the train wreck if it was JP doing the interview, I am actually quite surprised Phil was allowed to do it, in the past staff were disallowed to speak openly about the company (yes, we were told in a meeting that any talk of the existence of the company prior to JP taking over was a fireable offence).