"Byzantines versus Persians in 633 AD, in 6mm" Topic
27 Posts
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hindsTMP | 25 Mar 2014 5:52 p.m. PST |
Last week we resurrected our circa-1990 6mm mini-DBA setup to play a refresher game of DBA 1.0. Figures are Ros-Heroics mounted on plastic card. Although the game play isn't particularly interesting, the unusual scale used may be. The game, which was the first one of a 2-player campaign, involved Maurikian Byzantines relieving the town of Edessa from its Sassanian Persian besiegers. The game went as follows: Turn 1, below: Byzantines got off to a sluggish start, due to their incompetent general having overslept. The light horse on the left flank was supposed to worry the Persians, but ultimately was irrelevant due to lack of pips.
Turn 2, below: Byzantines advance in 3 columns, infantry on the road, and Persians for some reason descend from the hill (on the right side of the image near the river).
Turn 3, below: As in turn 2.
Turn 4, below: The Byzantine right column deploys to attack the Persian left flank, as the other 2 columns continue to move up. The Byzantine general had noticed that the most powerful part of the Persian line was over on their right, and thus out of the battle.
Turn 5, below: Combat continues on the Byzantine right. The Persian elephant unit decides to get closer to the action.
Turn 6, below: The Byzantine right begins to push back the Persian left, while some Byzantine light horse tries to distract the elephants (who were in a good position to roll up the line). At this point, the Byzantines didn't know whether the river at their back was paltry or not, so this was risky, but they had no choice.
Turn 7, below: More progress on the Byzantine right, as the Persian left begins to crumble. The Persian levies attempt to move up to help their elephants.
Turn 8,below: More progress against the Persian left, and a lucky die roll kills the Persian general, so the Persians flee the battlefield. As this was a practice game, it is decided to restart the campaign next week.
MH |
normsmith | 25 Mar 2014 11:16 p.m. PST |
Nice report and interesting what can be got out of a small space, that battlefield stills seems 'roomy' to the eye. |
hindsTMP | 26 Mar 2014 3:05 a.m. PST |
Yes, I do agree that the original 2' x 2' DBA terrain standard was sufficient. What we see here is just that original standard with all dimensions cut in half, for the terrain (1' x 1'), for the element bases, and for the movement measuring stick. MH |
Who asked this joker | 26 Mar 2014 6:28 a.m. PST |
Good inexpensive gaming. Nice report. |
warhorse | 26 Mar 2014 10:34 a.m. PST |
Wow, armies in your lunchbox! I like that size, and I am a big fan of pre-designed boards as well, as they really help with campaign games, and setup times. That scale renders that a practical undertaking, what with such small boards! |
Sean Clark | 26 Mar 2014 11:35 a.m. PST |
I have to say, initially my thoughts were "I didn't know Heroics and Ros did 15mm". Then the penny dropped. Along with my jaw. Sean |
Maddaz111 | 26 Mar 2014 5:14 p.m. PST |
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hindsTMP | 26 Mar 2014 5:59 p.m. PST |
WRT using 6mm for "half-scale" DBA, I am a committed Heroics and Ross user, so I don't use Baccus or Adler. In any case, I don't think they make Dark Ages and later in 6mm. H&R works pretty well so long as you are willing to do some creative conversions. It helps that they are so small, so you can do a lot with just paint, and maybe a little epoxy putty. The Byzantines above required some helmet surgery on the cavalry. I am also finishing an Arab Conquest army for this particular campaign, which uses mostly Arab figures from the H&R Crusades range. The infantry works as is, and the cavalry only needs the bow cases removed. The final army for this campaign is Khazars, and that will be a challenge. Mark |
Cesar Paz | 27 Mar 2014 4:37 a.m. PST |
.It really looks very nice. Good idea. Thank you for sharing. Do you have other armies? Cesar |
hindsTMP | 27 Mar 2014 11:36 a.m. PST |
Cesar, Just the Arab Conquest, so far (minus 2 required light horse stands). If it gets used this Sunday, I could post a sample image. MH |
warhorse | 27 Mar 2014 12:48 p.m. PST |
Wow, you are forcing me to reconsider 6mm. I mean even if not half-scale, you could do 6mm on 30mm frontage as well. And at that level, you can have both sides of all armies no problem. Trouble is, my fingers are so fat, I'd have trouble keeping everyone lined up. |
hindsTMP | 27 Mar 2014 2:21 p.m. PST |
Warhorse, When based on thin plastic card, the elements weigh practically nothing. This makes them very easy to move, as they almost "float" over the terrain, and can be pushed into position with a finger (or the movement stick). I actually find it much more difficult to move my 15mm ancients, as they are so much more massive, thus requiring more pressure, risking damage. Originally, I put small undercut blocks of plastic on one of the corners (as below), expecting to have to move them with tweezers. This wasn't necessary, although you could still do it if you were concerned about damage. Here's a cut and past of my basing scheme, in case anyone is interested: The standard for basing 6mm these days seems to involve thick, wide, almost plinth-like bases, presumably on the theory that 6mm is delicate and should not be touched with the fingers. Such bases can look great individually, but IMHO look strange on most gaming tables, to the point where my eye sees blocks and disks instead of humans and horses. As you can see from the images above, I use an alternative approach. My thin bases are not intended to be grasped with the fingers, so I can make them unobtrusive. The goal is to make it look like the figure is standing directly on the terrain. Each base is of thin plastic card, painted/flocked to match the game board, and originally with a small, undercut block of plastic at one of the corners. The original idea was that I would pick up the bases with modeling tweezers at these plastic blocks (undercut to keep the tweezers from slipping off). While this worked fine, I eventually found that figures could be grasped (lightly) with the fingers, and moved directly. This works because I keep my fingers clean during games with a piece of damp paper towel, and because of the mounting technique described below. For short distance moves, they can be "slid" across the terrain by pushing with the movement stick. My 6mm figures are painted in strips, but are then clipped off at the feet/ankles with side-cut pliers (keep in mind that the adhesive adds about 6 scale inches to the height). They are individually glued to the plastic card base with 5-minute epoxy by putting a dab of glue on the plastic base and on the feet of the figure, setting them aside for a short time, and then mating them together when tacky. The degree of tackiness must be sufficient to hold the figure upright, but must still allow adhesion. The point in time where both requirements are met is brief, and sets a limit on how many figures one can do for each batch of epoxy. In conjunction with this, I find it useful to bend a sheet of cardboard up along one edge to yield a vertical section of about 3 mm in height. As I dip the feet of each figure in epoxy, I lean them up against this vertical ridge. Then, when the epoxy has solidified a bit, I can grab each figure quickly with the minimum of fumbling. Another optimization is to lightly score, at an angle, the attachment points on the plastic card with the point of a knife, in order to give some mechanical reinforcement to the glue joint. This 6mm basing technique yields a strong and flexible structure, mostly due to the ability of the plastic card to flex if stressed. You can drop such stands to a carpeted floor without damage, and of course pick them up by carefully pinching the based group between the fingers. Although the above may sound elaborate, it's not that bad. My friend Larry Godson (who painted and based the Persians above) had no problem with the procedure.
Mark |
Bobgnar | 27 Mar 2014 5:36 p.m. PST |
Warhorse, "armies in a lunchbox "is a good idea. It was first shown in print in 1992 in a now out out-of-print magazine. Here's page-one link Page 2 link |
Cesar Paz | 29 Mar 2014 4:21 a.m. PST |
Bob the link to page 2 seems to be broken. |
Cesar Paz | 29 Mar 2014 4:23 a.m. PST |
It would be great if you could post some images of that Arabs MH! |
hindsTMP | 29 Mar 2014 11:33 a.m. PST |
Cesar, Here are the Arab Conquest 3Cv. They are H&R "Crusades" Saracen Cavalry, with the bow cases removed.
The 3Wb, 3Bw, and 2Ps are H&R "Crusades" Saracen Infantry. The 3Bd are modified "Dark Ages" Saxon Housecarls or Vikings, and the 2LH are modified "Barbarians" Hun Cavalry. I will post an image of the rest of the army when we use it in a game. Mark |
Phillip C | 29 Mar 2014 7:17 p.m. PST |
These figures look really cool! |
Cesar Paz | 30 Mar 2014 3:23 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the pictures Mark. The figures look very nice! I also like very much your bases. They really disappear!, and then, your miniatures can really be appreciated. This is very difficult to achieve in this scale! Very effective. Again,thanks for sharing this. |
Claudius | 29 Jul 2014 11:10 a.m. PST |
Mark- What H&R code(s) did you use for the Sassanid cavalry, I'm assuming the Cataphract or Clib. for the Kn elements, but for the Cavalry? H&R doesn't seem to have just a lance and shield unarmored mounted Sassanid. Am I wrong? Is that a spot to plug in Mounted Saracens also? Thanks. John |
hindsTMP | 30 Jul 2014 9:06 a.m. PST |
John, The Sassanians belong to Larry Godson, and are based on a DBA 1.0 list. IIRC, H&R sells 2 different packs of armored cavalry. He used the completely armored ones (Cataphracts MAS-4) for the DBA "knights" and the partially armored ones (Clibanarii MAS-3) for the DBA "cavalry". I believe that this is reasonably historical. The DBA "light horse" were MAS-5, which appear to be unarmored. Their catalog: PDF link I don't understand your mounted saracens question. If you were asking my opinion as to whether the H&R mounted saracens (MCR-4) would be suitable for Sassanians, I would say no, but that's just my personal preference. Also, I interpret MCR-4 as depicting armored cavalry (like ghulams), with tunics covering the armor. With the bow cases removed, I therefore considered them a reasonable 6mm model for armored Arab lancers. Mark |
Claudius | 30 Jul 2014 9:43 a.m. PST |
Thanks Mark, you have answered it for me, I thought perhaps the Cataphract and Clib were both heavily armored, thus making distinguishing them difficult. I will be embarking on a similar project……more of your photos always appreciated. John S. |
hindsTMP | 01 Aug 2014 1:29 p.m. PST |
Note that the figures are painted first, then mounted on the stands, then the stands are painted/flocked with the same color ground foam as the terrain board. The ground foam is applied to the base by first sliding a very wet paint brush over the stand and between the figures, and then by immediately immersing the stand in a box of ground foam. Once dry, shake off the excess. It also helps as a final step to run some wet paint along the sides of the plastic card, then re-immersing the stand in the box, in order to eliminate the visible white stripe of the side of the plastic card. BTW, the 1' x 1' terrain board fits snugly inside a custom-made cardboard box. I use a strip of plastic bag under the terrain board to lift it out of the box, and a 1' x 1' square of paper on top to protect the surface of the terrain board. Under the terrain board (in the box) are 4 custom made 6-inch-square, cardboard and foam "sandwiches", each of which contains one army. Dice, etc. are stored on top, folded up in a piece of bubble wrap. MH |
Claudius | 30 Jan 2015 7:41 a.m. PST |
Hi Mark: Did you complete the Arab Conquest army and if so, did you have to do any mods to the Saxon Huscarls for the Blades? Any thought on the camel scouts being covered by H&R's MA-19- Arab Camelry? It sounds like the ticket but H&R photos on the web are unfortunately scarce. John |
hindsTMP | 05 Feb 2015 8:24 a.m. PST |
Yes, I completed the Arab Conquest army. Unfortunately, my main DBA opponent is concentrating on his other interests lately, so I haven't done much with DBA for at least 6 months. IIRC, the Arab Conquest blades ended up being represented as modified Huscarles with shield and sword. The metal used in my H&R Huscarles was relatively maleable (a lot of lead in the alloy), and so this was fairly easy to do – kind of like modeling clay. The camels on the Arab Camelry are over-scale, IMHO. Fixing this is major surgery, involving disassembly the camel into its component parts, shortening all in proportion, and then glueing back together (…). I decided not to use them. You should still buy a pack so you can decide for yourself. When I get a Windows partition back in operation, I will post images. Mark H. |
andrewgilmartin | 16 Feb 2016 11:29 a.m. PST |
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hindsTMP | 16 Feb 2016 3:40 p.m. PST |
FYI, Comcast no longer hosts images for my old TMP posts, but I have a few of them temporarily on Google. Here is the "Turn 5" image from my first post in this thread:
MH |
Bobgnar | 16 Feb 2016 11:23 p.m. PST |
Page 1 link Here is the correct link for page 2
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