Durando | 23 Mar 2014 12:17 p.m. PST |
Has anyone looked at using the above rule set for the GWI, I am aware of a dedicated rule set Freedom or Death but am keen to chat too anyone who has or is developing a home grown set? |
John the OFM | 23 Mar 2014 12:35 p.m. PST |
I use TSATF for American Revolution, right out of the book. Very few mods. I treat muskets as carbines, and rifles as rifles. Troops with excellent morale, etc are treated as British, lesser troops as Egyptians. It is easy top adapt troops to the TSATF classifications. |
Durando | 23 Mar 2014 1:24 p.m. PST |
I had thought of adapting Neil Thomas rukes for 19thC warfare ! |
MajorB | 23 Mar 2014 1:48 p.m. PST |
I had thought of adapting Neil Thomas rukes for 19thC warfare ! You don't need to bother. He's already done it: link |
Durando | 23 Mar 2014 1:59 p.m. PST |
That I already knew, what I meant was using them for GWI as I am not sure they will handle the range of troop types and the high number of open order troops |
John the OFM | 23 Mar 2014 4:14 p.m. PST |
As for open order troops, I have used the stats for Boer, Pathan, Dervish and Zulu. Examine how they work, and then decide which fits best. There are Turks involved, right? I am sure they would fit in the stats somewhere. |
epturner | 23 Mar 2014 4:30 p.m. PST |
Opa, opa! I think you could use it just fine with the proverbial mods, as John says. You need to do the appropriate reading, have a think on how the troops actually behaved and apply the modifications as appropriate. Eric |
KTravlos | 23 Mar 2014 5:39 p.m. PST |
from my reading of the Revolution most battles were ambushes or sieges. The few pitched battles would go really really bad for the greeks. Tactical wise the greek irregualrs that made up the biggest part of the greek armies, fought by creating temporary tambouria, the equivelent if you wish for rifles pits. There was in one of my history books a probably anecdotal story from the Battle of Peta in which one of the fillelin officers saw the greeks digging rifle pits and asked why they are doing it, and the greek leader explained and asked why they are not. The fillelin said that there chests were their rifle pits, and the greek moved away nagging his head. So most greek vs. turkish fights sound from the readings as essentially fire-fights with very little use of cold steal. Once you throw into the mix the Taktiko (the small greek regular units destroyed at Peta, and the recreated and which fought at Mills of Lerna and Petr), and the Egyptians (well trained regulars) you get cold steal |
Grelber | 23 Mar 2014 8:17 p.m. PST |
I think they should work, with some adjustments for older, muzzleloading, non-rifled weapons. I've used TSATF for a pre-1821 scenario where Turks from Tripoli or Mistra march down to collect overdue taxes from my Maniots. Grelber |
Durando | 23 Mar 2014 8:22 p.m. PST |
I had in mind The Battle of Peta, as a demo game so all help greatfully recieved |
Grelber | 23 Mar 2014 8:34 p.m. PST |
What figures will you use? Grelber |
Durando | 23 Mar 2014 9:48 p.m. PST |
Until a dedicated range is out there, I plan to heavily lean on Perry Miniatures foot Bashis, some of Dixon Miniatures Ottomans,, Brigade Games Ottomans. I am in the process of having a generic Greek sculpted to bulk out the Bashis. When that sculpt is done I will commision a regular Egyptian. The regular Greek units may give me a headache! |
piper909 | 23 Mar 2014 10:00 p.m. PST |
Not even in your same century, but I have successfully adapted TS&TF for gaming the Jacobite rebellions (mainly 1745-46), with period tweaks and careful organization of troops types. As noted above, it's a very flexible game system. |
KTravlos | 24 Mar 2014 9:15 a.m. PST |
Peta is a good scenario because you get to showcase a lot of color. That said the greeks should lose :p What you will need are a) Swarms of Greek Irregulars which were the big part of the Greek Army b) About 350 Greek Regulars. Uniform wise you may be best to use Crimean Turkish Uniforms. At least the regular army at Petra (the last battle) may had worn blue pants, blue short coats, and red fez. c)Fillelines battalion: Really two companies about 200-250 men total. I can scour the net for their uniforms. But I would not find it weird if they were Landwher like Prussian Unifroms. d) Septeninsulars (Cephallonians, Kerkyreans and Leukadites), who probably fought as regulars and were dressed in uniform. b) + c) + d) according to the source I posted down were about 600 men total in three groups. This link is in greek, and like most documents on the revolution too much imbued by romantic nationalism, but if you can translate it it has good info on Peta. PDF link |
KTravlos | 24 Mar 2014 9:25 a.m. PST |
Here is a link to a greek webiste with a short history of the greek army. Use google transalte to translate it and it should get you some information link this picture may give you a slight idea of what the Phillelines looked like link also this link |
John the OFM | 24 Mar 2014 10:21 a.m. PST |
You may want to try Old Glory's Ottoman range, which spans many centuries uo to the late 19th, Also RSM has SYW Ottomans, with "Balkan Auxiliaries". |
Durando | 24 Mar 2014 3:12 p.m. PST |
All info great fully recieved, especialy any plates of the regular uniforms |
KTravlos | 24 Mar 2014 5:08 p.m. PST |
here is a mylonas plate of a cadet of Kapodistrias first military school
and here is a kontel plate of the 1832 greek army link Mind you the army at Peta will be closer to the first rather than second. Also I would dress the Septenisulars in german style unifroms |
KTravlos | 24 Mar 2014 5:12 p.m. PST |
if you can transalte this it has some info on the post-Peta regular army PDF link
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KTravlos | 24 Mar 2014 5:25 p.m. PST |
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Durando | 25 Mar 2014 1:58 a.m. PST |
Where did the plate of the regular with the Austrian style helmet come from and do you know of any other pics of this uniform? Regards, shipka |
KTravlos | 25 Mar 2014 6:19 a.m. PST |
I think it came from one of the greek military history magazines (Stratiotiki Isotria or Polemos and Istoria). Unfortunately I have them all in boxes in Greece. I cannot remember if it was the special on Greek soldiers in foreign armies, or a article on the greek army. Sorry Shipka. If you are looking for detailed and 80% certifiable information I cannot help, and I fear you will not find much either. I mean some of the info may indicate that the taktiko wore greek traditional uniforms, some that it had a mix etc. If I were you I would model the Septenisulars in european uniform with fatique caps, Greek Taktiko using the last plate, and European Phillelenes in a mix of campaign dress. |
KTravlos | 25 Mar 2014 9:44 a.m. PST |
This was the 15mm line created by Spiros Koumoussis. Maybe it can give you an idea link |
Durando | 25 Mar 2014 11:48 a.m. PST |
In the book , That Greece Might Still Be Free by William St Clair There is a picture of Byron wearing something akin to a Bavarian helmet and is described as dressed ss a Philhellenic soldier Please can you clarify what Taktiko means? |
KTravlos | 25 Mar 2014 11:59 a.m. PST |
Taktiko means regular: It was the name used for the regular units destroyed at Peta in most of the greek historiography I have read. I have a feeling Austrian and Bavarian helmets would be popular. Many of the greek commanders had served in the British Light Infantry and my guess is that would be a cheap source of uniforms. |
KTravlos | 25 Mar 2014 12:02 p.m. PST |
To be frank for all we know they may had looked like this link Though my feeling is that the Taktiko was seen as something different. |
Durando | 25 Mar 2014 12:14 p.m. PST |
Certainly from studying one of the group paintings of the Philhellenes and the Battalion Tarella, the uniform that appears to have been worn by the B.T was a fez with a deaths head badge to front, a shell jacket with splayed collar, close fitting trousers often ragged. There may have been a tassel to the fez even with a magnifying glass its not clear. |
piper909 | 25 Mar 2014 1:46 p.m. PST |
You gotta put Lord Byron in these games! Big morale loss if the Greeks allow him to be killed or captured! |
Durando | 25 Mar 2014 1:56 p.m. PST |
An interesting scenario addition although I dont think he was at Peta |
KTravlos | 25 Mar 2014 2:00 p.m. PST |
Nope Byron was not at Peta. But many of the Fillelines who were where quite popular with the Greeks and their loss was a big morale punch. I personally do not like Byron. He has cast a shadow over many other brave men. But ah well, thus it was with celebrities ever:p |
Durando | 25 Mar 2014 2:15 p.m. PST |
I have considered using Fields of Battle as a rule set as I am not sure if the rule set that was produced by Spiros will handle the number of units |
KTravlos | 25 Mar 2014 6:20 p.m. PST |
Hmm, the reality is that most battles of the Greek revolution were pretty small size wise. You need a lot of units so you can present the small regular element, but not really because of complexity. The irregualrs pretty much dug in and fought. |
Durando | 26 Mar 2014 10:14 a.m. PST |
A green I have had sculpted for me as a generic Greek/Albanian Souliote link
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KTravlos | 26 Mar 2014 11:24 a.m. PST |
That is pretty good! You got some nice figures there, are any available commercially? |
Durando | 27 Mar 2014 5:01 a.m. PST |
The Greek/Albanian I have been advised will be ready to purchase by end April all being well, I will let you know when the manufacturer releases him. All the other greens are from a Russo Turkish range from Outpost Wargames Service |
Durando | 27 Mar 2014 5:08 a.m. PST |
The Regiment Tarella at Peta wore, black fez with deaths head, when first raised by Baleste they wore an all black uniform but not the same as the Sacred Battalion. At Peta the regiment fought bravely often in barefeet, tattered faded uniforms, comprising a short jacket and trousers, although a period lithograph done in 1822 shows some civilian dress in use.This litho is the only published pic that I can find for this unit. |
Durando | 27 Mar 2014 5:22 a.m. PST |
The lithograph is published in That Greece Might Still Be Free by William St Clair between pags 74-75 of the paperback edition Publishers OpenBook publishers. The original is in The Historical Museum in Athens |
KTravlos | 27 Mar 2014 7:08 a.m. PST |
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Durando | 27 Mar 2014 11:10 a.m. PST |
Hi KTravalos would you have any info on what the Ionian sharp shooters may have worn at Peta? |
Durando | 27 Mar 2014 2:23 p.m. PST |
I have seen some 15mm which I believe were ones Spiros had done which I have seen painted as islanders, they appeared to wear the uniform of the British Greek Light infantry which was disbanded in 1813 |
Durando | 15 Aug 2014 1:59 p.m. PST |
Well for rule sets I have settled on Freedom or Death by the late S Koumoussis for my demo game of Peta….it has the best flavour, the unit sizes are manageable and is fully adaptable the more I study them. For those who maybe interested in the rules they occassionaly pop up on ebay. |
Durando | 11 Sep 2014 1:52 p.m. PST |
An update of Freedom or Death will be undertaken, to include uniform details, a decent bibliography, play testers are sought to look at the 3rd edition published in 1999 and offer up any additional elements for 28mm as the original rule set was designed for 15mm. Anyone interested in playtesting the old rules please contact me at sacredcarp@hotmail.com |