Tango01 | 22 Mar 2014 12:04 p.m. PST |
refuse to vacate Crimea base on orders of defiant commander. "Russian soldiers have stormed through the walls of an airforce base in Crimea after a Ukrainian commander ignored demands to leave and ordered his troops to 'stand their ground'. Two Ukrainian soldier are reported to have been shot and explosions have been heard at the Belbek base near Sevastapol after a tank broke through the gates. Ukrainian forces had backed a lorry against the entrance to stop an advancement, but pro-Russian soldiers managed to break through
" Full article here. link This gets bad. Amicalement Armand |
GeoffQRF | 22 Mar 2014 12:18 p.m. PST |
It's pretty stupid, and impatient. Its not like they were going to fight their way out. They probably would have held out for another week, tops, before withdrawal was ordered. |
Tony58 | 22 Mar 2014 12:28 p.m. PST |
How come the US & NATO etc., don't seem to have picked up any intelligence on this, before it all kicked off? |
Mako11 | 22 Mar 2014 12:34 p.m. PST |
Not surprised, really
Sad. |
GNREP8 | 22 Mar 2014 12:34 p.m. PST |
its rather interesting in perusing the comments on that DM piece that the majority of the highly rated comments are from the UK and basically seem to be neutral about the whole thing and the majority of most negatively rated comments of the ilk of 'Remember the Alamo/take as many Reds down with you as you can' comments are from the USA – being of course the country that is furthest away from any potential war and its consequences. Whilst I think that the way the Russians are behaving in disgraceful, its strange that readers of even a right wing paper now in the UK gives thumbs down to such views – but I think that many even on the right are disenchanted by the whole involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq in what people view (whether fairly or not) as America's wars. |
Only Warlock | 22 Mar 2014 1:42 p.m. PST |
Well seeing as America sank a lot more of our blood and treasure in containing the USSR during the cold war than everyone else combined, it might be a bit of frustration that the moment we pack up our gear the Europeans start invading each other again. |
Cheriton | 22 Mar 2014 1:45 p.m. PST |
"Russian soldiers have stormed through the walls or pro-Russian soldiers managed to break through
" ? Cheers, |
Marcus Maximus | 22 Mar 2014 1:57 p.m. PST |
Armand I wouldn't always trust the Daily Mail for news – better look at the some other rags like Telegraph or the Guardian, Times or FT for facts as DM always, always sensationalize things, however, having said that it's pretty stupid act by the Russians and will only escalate tensions to breaking point, as others have pointed out they could have waited for a little longer and the soldiers would have have asked to leave?!. As for the Ukraine Navy I would have thought they could have sabotaged and sunk their vessels rather than hand them over – US, France or even UK could have then, delivered second hand replacements
at a port of their convenience (NATO port)? |
GeoffQRF | 22 Mar 2014 2:01 p.m. PST |
|
GeoffQRF | 22 Mar 2014 2:05 p.m. PST |
BBC is also saying Russian (they have been quite careful in the past to say pro-Russian) "We saw Russian forces coming down the hill from part of the base they controlled, using armoured vehicles with heavy guns mounted on top. And they tried to batter their way firstly into the gate and secondly into the outer perimeter wall, which they managed to breach in two locations. There were distraction grenades, loud explosions, automatic gunfire, and the Russian special forces moved into the base itself, forcing the Ukrainian troops into one area. And now the base is under the control of the Russian forces. It was an extraordinary escalation of the use of force by Russia. There are now only a handful of bases left that are still technically under the charge of Kiev. And despite an attempt to try and handle this locally, the Russians have clearly decided that enough is enough and they want the rest of these bases under their control." |
GNREP8 | 22 Mar 2014 3:44 p.m. PST |
Well seeing as America sank a lot more of our blood and treasure in containing the USSR during the cold war than everyone else combined, it might be a bit of frustration that the moment we pack up our gear the Europeans start invading each other again. ------------------ Europeans – you mean 2 countries in Eastern Europe. But I don't think that people from afar seemingly urging on the Ukrainians to fight (or implying as some have here that if they don't then they are obviously not worth helping) is very edifying. For what its worth whilst the aspect of Crimean secession is one thing (incl given for instance NATO etc encouragement of Kosovan secession) I think the bully tactics of the Russian govt are appalling – though not worth going to war over. On a point about who's who, whilst we all know that the well kitted out self defence units are simply Russian units without badges, it occurred to me to wonder whether the more irregular looking and indeed civvy type groups are all really that or if some of them are just (or led by) Russian military personnel in plain clothes/surplus mixed camo. Up to today they rather than the more disciplined units seem to have been the ones taking the leading role in agitation. |
GNREP8 | 22 Mar 2014 3:47 p.m. PST |
As for the Ukraine Navy I would have thought they could have sabotaged and sunk their vessels rather than hand them over – US, France or even UK could have then, delivered second hand replacements
at a port of their convenience ----------------------- well either they are being very restrained, don't have clear order (one aspect mentioned in various reports even if the armed forces HQ says it has sent such) or are just not that bothered – obviously a fair chunk of the military may either be pro-Russian or possibly pro the former President and eastward looking |
Tgunner | 22 Mar 2014 4:02 p.m. PST |
Only one problem GNREP8
to get Ukraine to abandon the World's 3rd largest nuke arsenal we, the US AND the UK, promised that the Ukrane's territorial integrity would be respected. Russia promised that too by the way. So unless we do something to make the Ukraine whole we're making our promises worth less than the paper they are written on. Promises like that keep the world at least semi-sane and they are worth fighting for. |
GeoffQRF | 22 Mar 2014 4:06 p.m. PST |
There have been several reports that they are under specific orders not to engage. So far tat has been in the face of provocation, but the potential of problems during an assault are more obvious, as seen today. Given the circumstances, they probably should be given clear orders to withdraw as they are not doing any good there and it is just increasing tensions. Regarding the little green men (as they are called in Crimea), yes, quite clearly Russian soldiers from the base. The lack of all insignia is almost as much a giveaway as holding a flag up – if they were, as Russia persistently tries to claim – Crimean local defence they would be quite proudly wearing the Orange and black Crimean ribbon that appeared when the (much less regularly attired) local defense lot really did appear
|
GNREP8 | 22 Mar 2014 4:13 p.m. PST |
Tgunner Well I'm all in favour of sanctions etc but I don't think anyone (or very few) in the UK would be prepared to support either military action or even covert support to the Ukrainians. It may well be that the US is different but over here people are very disenchanted with the whole business in Iraq and Afghanistan (as much as most support the troops)and that colours any future involvement in military actions other than if we have to ever deal again with the I Ran Away or maybe the Falklands/Gibraltar. But as I've said before culturally for all that we are not Europeans (and Germany clearly does not want to harm economic links to Russia)we are probably far further away from the US than the width of the Atlantic suggests – I was born in the 60s, studied Russian at uni, was in the TA for a while during the Cold War but I simply don't think that most people have the Soviet/Russian bogeyman in their minds that there clearly is in the US. Nearly all European states (and the UK) after all oscillate between centre right and socialist govts so as much as we're not communists a lot of people are ok with doctrines that perhaps in your country would seem the thin red end of the wedge (albeit of course that Russia is not communist anyway now) |
GeoffQRF | 22 Mar 2014 4:22 p.m. PST |
What it is likely to do is weaken the negotiating power for Russia in future diplomatic deals. The EU/US/UN is at least arguing the toss over Ukrainian territory. |
whoa Mohamed | 23 Mar 2014 4:11 a.m. PST |
1. Lets not forget that the Ukrainian servicemembers families live near those bases. 2. If our British Brothers don't see a boogey man then fine lets leave them to it and move on
(Cough Hitler 2). 3. We (America) made a promise and as much as I am sick to death of WAR im as sick of our Govt writing checks the military can't cash..and no doubt the Ukrain will be added to the list of countries that will bear a grudge against us. if we lack the balls to back up our promise then at least give them the damn weapons to defend themselves enough to deter the russians from having a walk over and then let see how the vote goes. 4. It is time for the EU to step up and take care of thier own bussiness and Im sure they are as sick of Us butting in as we are of them not manning up thier Armies so we don't have to
Sorry for the rant But man after 3 active campaigns during and post cold war and then Iraq we vets did not go thru all that to see Peoples freedoms shrink instead of grow
Mikey |
Klebert L Hall | 23 Mar 2014 10:09 a.m. PST |
AFAICT, only me and about 7 other grumpy old geezers in the West give half a crap about the Ukraine, or our commitments, or Russia rolling up a lot of little countries. So, welcome aboard, New Soviet Union. -Kle. |
GeoffQRF | 23 Mar 2014 10:26 a.m. PST |
These are apparently pro-Russian troops attacking someone in Crimea:
But I was mostly interested in the uniform. I recognise the camo, but with trainers
? |
GNREP8 | 23 Mar 2014 1:20 p.m. PST |
Whoa Mohammed Surely they've got the weapons already? As to the UK well we've made significant contributions of money and troops to various campaigns and is the issue the size of EU armies or how they are used |
whoa Mohamed | 23 Mar 2014 3:53 p.m. PST |
I fully regognise the contributions of the many brave and wonderfull service men and women of the UK I was refering to your govts inability like ours to pick a winner at the track if thier life depended on it. And yes size does matter, a top knotched Battalion is still going to get walked over by a brigade.And it would be Nice to see the EU fully intergrate and show a united front at which point then no the size of the army would not be as significant. And from the info being generated NO i do not think they have the weapons and why should they The US and UK guranteed thier teritorial Integrity as did russia and we see what that got them. |
GeoffQRF | 24 Mar 2014 5:41 a.m. PST |
Ukraine has now ordered its military to withdraw from Crimea: link |
Jemima Fawr | 24 Mar 2014 7:37 a.m. PST |
Meanwhile, not to be outdone by Russia, Wales is making a bid to annex Donetsk: link |
GeoffQRF | 24 Mar 2014 9:10 a.m. PST |
Lol, I saw that. It's circulating in Kyiv too. |
Tango01 | 03 Apr 2014 10:01 p.m. PST |
NATO military chief warns Russian troops could invade swiftly. "military chief warned Wednesday that Russian troops could begin moving on Ukraine within 12 hours of being given an order, amid fears that Moscow could seek to invade its eastern region. Gen. Philip Breedlove, NATO's supreme allied commander Europe, also told CNN's Christiane Amanpour that with 40,000 troops massed near the border, Russia has all the components necessary to move on Ukraine. These forces are "supported by fixed-wing aircraft, rotary aircraft, all of the logistics required in order to successfully make an incursion if they needed," he said
" Full article here link Amicalement Armand |
Barin1 | 03 Apr 2014 10:49 p.m. PST |
Oh, not again
. of course they can. They were amassed one month ago on Ukrainian border in order to be prepared to enter eastern part of Ukraine if the need arise. And of course they have all combined arms and support necessary to overcome the opposition – otherwise it will be a stupid incursion. We've already seen panic reports about 160000 troops, then the figure was reduced 4 times to 40000, but still looks scary. However there's a slight difference between "can" and "will". Putin actually provided great support to worldwide weapons producers by making a suitable scarecrow to increase military budgets, therefore until these budgets are secured the tensions should be maintained
. |
GeoffQRF | 03 Apr 2014 11:22 p.m. PST |
I do worry about this chap in charge of NATO making such sweeping scaremongering statements. Barin has it pretty much spot on, as far as I can tell. If you intend to go in, you do so with sufficient force and speed to overwhelm the opposition and minimise losses, not give them a month or so to think about it, mobilise their army, relocate it to the border and prepare defenses. Let's assume the intention was to invade. Realistically, they were not likely to go any further west than Kyiv. After that, support would drop off considerably and they would find themselves open to constant partisan action, a real mess. They would find themselves squarely in the middle of a civil war that they had started. Why are they still there? To keep pressure on the upcoming elections (scheduled for 25 May) and ensure that Russian speakers are represented and not stormed by imaginary hordes of right wing Bandera bandits. Word on the street is that things are notably quieter, but tensions remain high pending the elections. I expect some trouble as one side or the other doesn't get what it wants, but they do seem to be heading the right way. |
Andy ONeill | 04 Apr 2014 3:14 a.m. PST |
There is no united states of Europe. A EU army isn't going to happen. Every country wants to put LESS money into the EU and most think it should have LESS control over the member states. Just suggesting the idea would be an end of career move for politicians with any power. The army is still a bit busy at the moment elsewhere but even if it wasn't. The public perception. Non existent wmd for Iraq, messed up Iraq, long drawn out seemingly pointless Afghanistan. Political suicide again. |
Mako11 | 04 Apr 2014 4:15 a.m. PST |
On a related note, I read an article a little while ago about Putin revamping the Russian army. A lot of people have been let go, but 50,000 – 80,000 well-trained, professional soldiers are the core of the new force, and many have been given raises. Supposedly, they are very well motivated and equipped, which is why the NATO general is so concerned. They are part of the new, lean and efficient Russian army, which pulled off the Crimea takeover so quickly that it has a lot of the EU and others unnerved. |
GeoffQRF | 04 Apr 2014 7:57 a.m. PST |
A EU army isn't going to happen. BBC: "The shock of this crisis has given the alliance a new burst of energy but will it be sufficient to convince member countries to boost defence budgets? Might it also underscore something of a shift in the internal dynamics within Nato? The US still wants its European partners to shoulder more of the burden and it is clear that some European countries – notably the Poles – are much more ready and willing to step into the breach." So, as usual, conflict may lead to a consolidation of effort against a common
perhaps not enemy, but certainly [potnetial] direction of threat. Interesting article on the snipers in Kyiv: link Police/security forces armed with AK and sniper rifle:
Shooters were apparent on both sides
. but what is this?
Is that an air rifle? That hardly seems fair :-) Footage of the true chaos with untrained people once shooting starts. Worth watching to the end to see just how little defence a metal helmet provides: link Is NATO just a sleeping pussy cat? Gen Breedlove's military planners have been told by Nato foreign ministers to come up with a range of military options to reassure worried allies
The list of options should be ready by 15 April. So they are looking at military preparations, at least on paper. Meanwhile
"
a joint radar initiative that shares data between countries on Nato's borders will have the Russian part of the operation switched off. So once again another small, but significant, detachment. Does Russia care about that? Perhaps. Perhaps not. But it is another isolating factor
There is, too, a real sense of crisis and a feeling that the alliance has to an extent been taken in by Moscow. As one senior Nato official put it: "We may have had an overly optimistic view of Russia for many years." Now the trust, he said, had gone. I think the trust damage to Russia's reputation will have ripple consequences for years, and still question whether, while they 'could' (and did) secure Crimea, whether it was really a wise move long term (not so much in what was done, as to how it was done)
|
Uesugi Kenshin | 04 Apr 2014 12:55 p.m. PST |
@Geoff, re: trainers
.if you go back and look at videos of the Beslan school massacres, a great number of the Alpha guys are wearing trainers. Ive seen the same on contract soldiers (Contraktniki ?) in Chechnya. I certainly dont think the presence of trainers is a disqualifier as Russian Regulars ( I'd assume its because issued Russian boots are so bloody awful!). |
Tgunner | 05 Apr 2014 4:03 p.m. PST |
Barin has it pretty much spot on, as far as I can tell. If you intend to go in, you do so with sufficient force and speed to overwhelm the opposition and minimise losses, not give them a month or so to think about it, mobilise their army, relocate it to the border and prepare defenses.
One problem Geoff. You just summarized Desert Shield to the "T". We, my unit, sat on the Iraqi border for almost 2 months, waiting, for the political wheels to finish rolling. There are guys in the USMC and 24th ID who were there even longer sitting in that God awful desert even longer than us
That gave Saddam gobs of time to redeploy most of his army, build the Saddam Line, and even raise like 10 new infantry divisions to boot. Sorry man, common sense, no matter how good it is, doesn't apply to war or politics. |