"Russian Grenadier Miter" Topic

Sorry for flogging this subject to death, BUT . . .

Conrad's Viskovatov translation, when referring to the introduction of shakos:
"19 August 1803— Noncombatant lower ranks of Grenadier regiments are given round shakos [shapki] in place of the tricorn hat."

I have taken this as an indication that, initially, shakos were only ordered for Grenadiers and Fusiliers who had been wearing tricorn hats and had never been issued miters. These miters were ordered for all grenadiers and fusiliers in 1796. But by 1803 we can conclude that a number of regiments had still not received them.

So from here I guess I'm looking to identify those regiments still wearing tricorns in 1803. I am further guessing that all other grenadiers had been issued miters and were still wearing them.

It is not until February of 1805 that the remaining grenadiers and fusiliers, still wearing miters, were ordered to abandon those and adopt the shako:

"13 February 1805— In all Grenadier regiments, the former grenadier and fusilier caps of combatant lower ranks are replaced by new ones based on the pattern established in 1803 for noncombatants, except not quilted."

How soon the shakos were actually issued and worn by these units is open to some speculation. It has been proposed that units suffering the heaviest casualties at Austerlitz were probably the first to be re-equipped, as their casualties were replaced. Of course, the Russian army didn't really stand down after the 1805 campaign, but continued on into the 1806 and 07 campaigns with very little down time.

If anyone can help clarify this situation, it would be much appreciated. I'm looking to build an 1807 non-Pavlov grenadier unit in miters. I would prefer it be authentic.

Widowson,

The passage you quoted refers only to the non-combatant lower ranks (doctors aids, craftsmen, drivers, etc,)

Read the relevant sections of the Viskovatov again, noting this difference, and I think your will not see a problem any more.

I think that the best short summary of the known elements of the pace of introduction of the shako is here (and in English!):
link

- Sasha

Makes sense. Thanks, Sasha. I am not able to open the link, but will try from a better computer. It's great to have a Russian on TMP. The Russian army is so enigmatic and difficult to figure out. Viskovatov, though a great source, can be difficult to read!

Bill

Bill, I've given you the same links many times over the years--but you don't seem to get the message. Perhaps if you perceive it to be coming from a native-Russian speaker it will 'resonate' better with you.

Geez, Greystreak, try not to get offended.

For one thing, I was hoping for different information. For another, I've had to move a couple of times since "over the years" and my old favorites and cataloged links are lost.

But there is certainly an advantage to a member who can read Russian. Who knows what other resources he may have come across over the years?

Interesting that you assume I spent no time studying the language, cannot read Russian, and am 'offended'. Wrong on all three, Bill. Good hunting.

history.scps.ru/gren/05.htm Use Google (or similar browser toolbar add-on) 'Translate' feature for English.

Greystreak, Widowson,

I am *not* a native Russian speaker nor a citizen of the Russian Federation. I am, as is rather typical for us, inordinately proud of my American citizenship.

My wife is Russian (*very* Russian), but she is way too over-educated and a bit prissy and pretends to know nothing of Russian slang or lower-class idiom. She often speaks English for business and French otherwise. And she claims to be unable to understand less-then-perfect Russian …. which includes mine and our (adopted) daughter's!

Her French, by the way, is a bit like an Alsatian's accent – but I don't have the courage to tell her about this. I think she picked this up when she worked for the EU Parliament in Stasbourg as a post-doc researcher.

Our household is like the tower of Babel, with fluent speakers and common use of Russian, French, English, Georgian, Abkhaz, Adyghe and Cossack Ukrainian (called "Balachka").
:-)

- Sasha

Don't remember using the word "assume", but don't really care. Just trying to build a nice unit of non-Pavlov miter-wearing Russian grenadiers. Didn't expect to have to fight for it. GS seemed offended to me, but what do I know?