"US Infantry Trousers " Topic

Got a box of PSC US Infantry on the way. Those minis appear to be wearing the '41 uniform (usually painted as tan waist length jacket/ brown pants)… I was wondering if the early jackets would be warn with the '43 (more green) trousers or with HBT trousers?

bottom line: would it be wrong to paint these mins with Vallejo US Green rather than US Field Drab?

IE is this re-enactor pic wrong?

Yes, the re-enactor pic is wrong, but any thing is possable.

Early you would find the (Brown) wool pants, (Brown) wool Shirt and the "tan waist length jacket".

In most cases M43's Pants and Jacket.

Some good info here:
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NO, the reenactor is not wrong, he had just chosen to wear hbt fatigues at pants, which while not technically correct was done very often.

You have three basic types of trousers in the war- the most common are the mustard brown wool which were the single most common ones in the war and fit all time periods. Then you have the OD7 HBT pants technically worn for doing dirty jobs but used quite often in combat. and then you have the M43 pants which really did not start turning up until late in the war. In Europe you don't really see them in a large number until the spring of 45 (as most winter clothing deliveries were delayed until Antwerp was finally cleared (Thank you Monty, he said sarcastically).

And then there are some ones you can ignore, the kahki, the ones made of British wool, the darker wool ones that are really late war.

Now while I say the reenactor is not wrong, he is not the wearing the commonly seen outfit the US Army wore for the majority of the war and will work for any occasion. For that you need the mustard brown wool, which I could never find a good match for, and just mixed paint until I was happy with it.

I would not use M43 pants with the M41 jacket. It was done, but rarely.

In looking through the listed websites I am amazed how many companies that make the figures just totally ignore all the writing and research that has gone on regarding uniforms, and just tend to repeat bad sources, that repeat bad sources, that comes from who knows where.

M43s were first issued in quantity in the Fall of 1944 (the airborne divisions were among the first to be reequipped, and jumped in Market-Garden wearing the new uniform). You will see the "early" uniform in use right up to the end of the war. As jgawne pointed out, the reenactor is wearing the HBT trousers – which were issued large and intended to be worn over the mustard brown woolen trousers.

So I'm better off just painting the psc minis with mustard brown pants?

I consider airborne issue a separate and special issue from generic army. But yes, if you paint them the mustard brown=, with the OD3 (aka tan) short jacket and webbing and leggings, you will be correct for ANY European time period in the war, and some of the Pacific.

Those boots he is wearing look suspiciously like Corcorans to me, I don't think roughouts had seperate toecaps.

I think his shoes are Type I or II service shoes, which were 'smooth side out'. No reason to wear Corcorans with leggings.

Field soldiers will often wear whatever they can get away with…so if you want realistic then don't sweat out variation. Also keep in mind that some guys pants issued six months ago will be of a different shade than the same pants issued yesterday.

Los

I imagine a reenactor would wear leggings over Corcorans so he would only have to buy one set of footwear to do two separate impressions, foot slogger/airborne

Thanks guys, also doing Yanks and kept thinking the wool uniform was best done with Vallejo US field drab or English uniform for the wool uniform, anyone got an idea how to get this "mustard" colour using Vallejo paint mixes and did it apply to the shirt as well?, thanks in advance.

This site should help.

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HBTs were common issue throught the war, particularly sensible for warmer climates and commonly seen in the Med and the Pacific. They were made in OD7, the above picture is a perfect impression for Rangers on Pont-Du-Hoc, in fact you can see the purple diamond on his left shoulder.

Smoothside out GS boots are also extremely common issue items, and look basically like a cut down US jump boot, and at 150 bucks a pair or there abouts I can see why some would be tempted to wear gaitors over jump boots.

Smoothside GS boots

Jump Boots (original and ATF repro)

And for the naysayers nothing beats period photos

That is an amazing photo, by the way. The look on the GI's face sums up what I imaging the 'ground level' emotions would be like: pity at a life cut short mixed with relief that it wasn't them.

It is, isn't it. Combine that with dog-tired as well.

"I imagine a reenactor would wear leggings over Corcorans so he would only have to buy one set of footwear to do two separate impressions, foot slogger/airborne"

That is exactly what some of my US re-enactor pals do:) I didn't realise there was a smooth US infantry boot, but US kit isn't my speciality.

Yes, great photo, look how dirty their hands and faces are too, I do wonder if we paint our guys far too clean.

I disagree. I don't think the reenactor is wearing HBT pants. Note that there is no herring bone pattern in the cloth! Also, HBT was a more gray-ish shade of green than what he is wearing, which looks more like Vietnam-era fatigues.

I think we do tend to paint clean hands and faces so they stand out as points of contrast and if we 'muddy them up' the figure just looks messy. If you understate it it just blends together and you can't see anything – there are limits to what can be done on a 20-30mm figure.

Even in 54mm it's hard to get a 'dirty look' right [that came out odd!]

I agree – I think the reenactor is wearing the wrong trousers (too green) – though it's not an unreasonable fudge. If you're reenacting combat – running about, crawling in the mud and digging holes in the ground you don't want to wear out expensive period clothing or high quality reproductions.

Handy info here.

"I think we do tend to paint clean hands and faces so they stand out as points of contrast"

Yes, I agree. I've tried to paint dirty and/or camo'd flesh and it just looks stupid.

I'm sure that all trousers were brown seconds after coming under fire!

DonLowry, Right click on the Period photograph hit view Image, its actually a massive image that you can zoom right in on, The ranger in the picture, is wearing HBT jacket and 2nd pattern HBT trousers (they have thigh pockets, just like more modern fatigues).

Theres no obvious weave in the period image either, and its much better resolution than the modern picture. I'm not sure its always clearly seen. Id also point out that the modern photo is taken directly from the At The Front, website and he would have modern reproductions at hand so would not need to substitute with vietnam period gear.

The Chap at ATF has pretty strong views about absolutes when it comes to uniform colours and has extant examples and period shots to re-inforce this point. Admittedly the following article is about M43 feild uniforms not HBTs which were Cotton drill not HBT, but they're both dyed in Olive drab No 7 dye, and show a surprising amount of variation. This reflects the vagaries of dying a natural fibre. Its why he seems to sell two colour variations on most of his items, to better reflect that variation.

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I hope this is useful.

Cheers

Chris

The jackets above are originals not repros BTW

CCollins: right click what period photo?

I'm not an expert on uniforms, but my impression is that HBT refers to the fatigue uniform as worn by some combat units in Tunisia. The late-war olive-green uniforms that slowly replaced the wool ODs did not have a herringbone pattern, but those early fatigues did.

The HBT uniform, in its various versions, was used in all theaters and correct for all periods Don. Here is a good summary:
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You will clearly see later patterns of the HBT don't show the obvious pattern associated with early versions.

If it doesn't have a herring-bone pattern, why call it HBT?

Herringbone Twill, or HBT, describes a type of weave. Depending on the type fabric, dye and closeness of the weave depends on how distinctive it is.

If you are the type of gamer who is worried about the exact shade to paint the trousers on your PSC infantry, I suggest maybe you only paint the front of each figure, and don't turn them round to see the webbing !

Well as for the merits of research when painting little lead or plastic men is entirely up to you. My personal preference is looking at real examples to determine a theoretical ideal then add reasonable variation of colour from there. It might be slightly OCD but it keeps me happy. I rarely venture out with my figures, tending at play at mates places, so I don't tend to get confronted by Know-it all Gronards, but if i ever do, these mythical beasts I can see off with a brayley and ingram volume and a little research.

Don, as for why they are called HBts when you can't see an obvious weave I'd suggest it might be too fine to be seen in the photograph, but that doesn't mean it isn't hbt weave.

The photograph I was referring to is in my post above, it has some rangers standing near a bombed out bunker, probably at Pont-Du-Hoc, the central figure is armed with an M1 carbine and is looking down on a dead German. its actually a massive photograph in fairly high resolution, so if you like you can look at the details pretty closely.

ah right it took me a moment but yes mad axeman you have a point, the webbing is a bit fictitious.

@madaxmen- I'm well aware of the webbing issues haha… And I'm also using this discussion to fact check some older us infantry I had done when I first started painting… I had put green trousers on them… Having now seen the PSC infantry I have mixed feelings about them… But generally pleased… Might experiment with a box of the new wargames factory GIs

The trousers in this collection
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look more like what I think of as HBT. Click on the little magnifying glass icon to enlarge the photo.

The photo comes from this excellent site:
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The simple answer is, HBT fatigue pants have large hip pockets and wool ones don't, so if your mini has pockets, paint green, if not, paint mustard brown…..

But the wool pants weren't brown, they were olive drab.

My bad – typing late at night. Meant to say sage green and mustard green respectively.Sage green as opposed to olive because the HBT fabric fades like crazy after a few washes.

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