"CinC for AWI?" Topic
14 Posts
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Early morning writer | 15 Mar 2014 11:34 p.m. PST |
So, for one side the obvious honcho is George Washington and the other Howe. But what about optional CinC possibles? For the colonials certainly the two most obvious are Horatio Gates and Nathaniel Greene with Rochambeau as a co-leader (as at Yorktown). And for the other team there is Burgoyne (for his command at least) plus Clinton and Cornwallis. So, those are the obvious. How about the less obvious? Who else might have risen to fulfill the role of CinC for either side? |
79thPA | 16 Mar 2014 2:10 a.m. PST |
Benedict Arnold, Israel Putnam, and Anthony Wayne for the Americans. |
Supercilius Maximus | 16 Mar 2014 2:25 a.m. PST |
What part of the war are you talking about? Is it during (at some point) or before it all seriously kicks off (in which case you'd have to re-consider Gage)? The British actually had Howe, Clinton and Carleton during the war; Cornwallis was the reserve option if Clinton had died/resigned (he had a secret commission that would have leap-frogged him over Knyphausen to avoid a Hessian being in charge in NYC). I don't think anyone would have put Burgoyne in charge. It's difficult to think of anyone else who actually served in theatre who might have been considered, especially after Grey and Grant (a borderline nutcase) went to the West Indies. Amherst was too old for overseas service, plus he and too many others had Whig sympathies. Rather like in WW1, you'd have to ask "Who else would/could have done any better?" For the Rebels, Putnam was too old and really more of a talisman than a serious candidate for general rank (Ward would have been better, but again, too old). Arnold and Wayne were far too junior at the start of the war, and made too many enemies during it. Of the senior officers, Gates was seriously considered to repace Washington, but IMO was more of a "patsy" and would have been manipulated by others behind the scenes. Lee, given that his "chuminess" with his former colleagues was not known about till long after the war, was a far more likely choice (he was third in command after Washington and Ward in 1775/6). Ben Lincoln was No.2 to Washington at Yorktown, and Sullivan was a dark horse who might have suddenly made an appearance if the job was up for grabs (although I've always suspected he was a closet Catholic, which might have come out). Just out of interest, what is your purpose here? Is this game-related, or merely casual musing? |
79thPA | 16 Mar 2014 3:23 a.m. PST |
Sorry, I misread your thread. That's what you get when I have to cover a midnight shift. I thought you were looking for generals who could command an army for a Command and Colors AWI game; I didn't realize you were looking for a CiC. I need to go to bed. |
Tom Collins | 16 Mar 2014 6:01 a.m. PST |
The Hessian leap-frogging commissions did not accomplish their desired result. General Knyphausen did command in NYC and lead the invasion of New Jersey & battle of Springfield in 1780. General Knyphausen had an excellent chance to strike at the mutinous Continental Army and finish it. Consult Thomas Fleming's 1973 volume "The Forgotten Victory" for insight on Knyphausen's command & actions. |
Early morning writer | 16 Mar 2014 7:33 a.m. PST |
Thanks for the responses so far. To clarify my purpose, I am building a very large multi-theater AWI collection of figures (in 15 mm scale) and will have, at the top levels – CinC, wing, and divisional – of command some optional general stands painted up. For my CinC figures, they have a standard bearer on the stand and since Washington's flag is iconic I decided I needed multiple stands and just decided to have three or four for each side. While I have my own ideas on this, curious to get some outside input to see if I was too far off the mark or missing someone. One thought I had after the post was Heister, I believe he was the actual highest ranking German in North America until he returned to Germany. By the way, I am designating command by the aforementioned flag bearer next to a mounted figure for CinC, wing commanders get an attendant drummer or fifer, divisional commanders get an officer on foot, and brigade commanders get a common soldier on foot – unless it is the brigadier for a cavalry brigade in which case the foot soldier has a trumpet. (I know, there wasn't much in the way of cavalry brigades in the AWI but I plan to have lots of fictional gaming for this period and I want to add in more cavalry. Just 'cuz.) |
John the OFM | 18 Mar 2014 8:42 a.m. PST |
Greene was a favorite of Washington. Lee was despised by one and all, but oddly respected. I can't figure out how Wayne would have fitted in. He was politically astute, considering how he handled the mutiny of the Pennsylvania Line. Gates was a darling of the Continental Congress, but I think SM has it right with Sullivan. |
Redcoat 55 | 27 Mar 2014 1:07 p.m. PST |
Supercilious Maximus, When you note Grant was "borderline nutcase," are you basing this off his burn all their primary cities down idea and boast in parliament or are there some other gems I have missed about him? :) |
Supercilius Maximus | 27 Mar 2014 2:31 p.m. PST |
He boasted that he would go from one end of America to the other and "geld all the males". He was also described as being "supercilious" (what more evidence would you want?). |
Kharkov43 | 27 Mar 2014 2:53 p.m. PST |
Greene is my favorite than Arnold he would have been a national hero. |
Bill N | 27 Mar 2014 5:56 p.m. PST |
The American senior command took a hit during the war. Of the four senior commanders appointed in 1775 and the 8 others appointed Major General by the end of 1776, only Washington, Gates, Heath, and Greene (in order or seniority) were still around by Yorktown. Lee had been cashiered, Montgomery and Thomas were dead, and Ward, Schuyler, Putnam, Spencer and Sullivan had resigned. In total about half those appointed major general died, were cashiered or resigned before the end of the war. This is in part why Lincoln, DeKalb and Lafayette were entrusted with major commands in the later stages of the war. I believe Wayne wasn't promoted to major general until after the war ended, and even with the attrition he would have been a fairly junior commander. |
Supercilius Maximus | 28 Mar 2014 4:17 a.m. PST |
Other than Montgomery, who was killed, am I right in saying that all of the former British Army officers who became Continental Generals* were court-martialled at some point (and Montgomery almost certainly would have been for the failure at Quebec)? * Gates, St Clair, Charles Lee, Schuyler. |
Bill N | 28 Mar 2014 5:45 p.m. PST |
I didn't realize Schuyler held a British commission. I thought he started out as a militia officer and then just landed a staff position. Any info? |
historygamer | 29 Mar 2014 7:51 a.m. PST |
Grant always amuses me. His performance during the F&I period should have been enough to have him run out of the service. link Not that wiki is always right, but the write up on Grant's Defeat in 1758 is completely wrong. Okay, back to the focus of the thread. I thought the Luzader Book, which is regarding by Park Rangers at Saratoga as the best book on the campaign – seemed very complimentary to me of Gates. link |
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