historygamer | 14 Mar 2014 8:04 a.m. PST |
Other than the moment in the sun at Saratoga, and their drill routine before entering the trenches at Yorktown, I really don't see American Lights in many battles, and I am wondering about even painting them up? I know, the uniforms look cool, but if they really weren't in battles
. I'd have to do some research on what the Lights were even wearing at Saratoga. |
Pan Marek | 14 Mar 2014 8:08 a.m. PST |
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Bill N | 14 Mar 2014 9:16 a.m. PST |
They were heavily involved in the Virginia campaign of 1781. Some may have gone south with Anthony Wayne and campaigned in Georgia in 1782. Also I believe Morgan's continentals at Cowpens were made up of the light troops of the Maryland line. |
historygamer | 14 Mar 2014 9:57 a.m. PST |
No Lights at Cowpens: link |
vtsaogames | 14 Mar 2014 9:59 a.m. PST |
Once formed, they are the closest the US army has to grenadiers. I think they figure at Monmouth. |
historygamer | 14 Mar 2014 10:04 a.m. PST |
Maybe at Green Spring with Wayne? Kind of a small battle |
Gnu2000 | 14 Mar 2014 12:13 p.m. PST |
They weren't a permanent fixture of the Continental army, being formed at specific times for a couple of campaigns. I think only towards the end of the war, under Lafayette did the term "light infantry" really represent elite Continental troops. So Yorktown was perhaps their only chance to really shine? And they did pretty well. The late Greg Novak's OOB books cover this pretty well. |
Gnu2000 | 14 Mar 2014 12:25 p.m. PST |
At Cowpens (and through much of the Race to the Dan) Greene detached a "light division", which was an ad-hoc arrangement of veteran companies of the Maryland, Delaware and Virginia continentals accompanied by Washington's dragoons and/or Lee's Legion, rifle companies/battalions and whatever militia could be persuaded to join them. They represented the cream of Greene's army (militia excepted) At Weitzel's Mill a week or so prior to Guilford Courthouse, the Light Division under Williams (in the absence of Pickens) was nearly cut off and destroyed in detail by Cornwallis. (I'm presenting a game of this at the Cannon show in Retford, UK on 30th March) This formation was however temporary and ad-hoc. The Continental light battalion at Cowpens was not necessarily 100% the same as the one at Weitzell's Mill, and after this the companies returned to their parent units (or served independently) at Guilford CH. After this the light troop function was performed by the legions (Lee's Legion and Washington's dragoons + Delawares). It should be noted that this "Light Division" of 1780-81 is in no-way related to the "Light Infantry" units formed temporarily as part of Washington's Main Army in 1777 and 1780-81. AWI American organisation is perhaps one of the most confusing things to get your head around. I've been at it for 20 years and it still throws confusion at me ;-) Hope this helps. Interested to hear if anyone else has further information. It is nice to have some elite troops in your army to balance all that dodgy militia! Steve |
historygamer | 14 Mar 2014 1:13 p.m. PST |
So based on their performance (title and uniform), what would justify an elite rating? The storming of the redoubt at Yorktown was done against a demoralized and grossly outnumbered opponent. The storming of Stoney Point (same troops???)? I just don't see these troops in a lot of combat? |
historygamer | 14 Mar 2014 1:13 p.m. PST |
Agreed on the ad hoc use and title of lights. |
cavcrazy | 14 Mar 2014 4:41 p.m. PST |
In terms of gaming, I use my Continental lights as lights. I use them to skirmish and provide a screen so that my line troops can get closer to the enemy without taking fire, and when they have served their purpose they move off to the flanks to harass and skirmish other lights. They are not very good at melee with line troops, and you really don't want to put them in that type of situation, but if they are in some light woods with cover, or scouting the flanks they get the job done. I would paint them up. |
Dn Jackson | 14 Mar 2014 5:24 p.m. PST |
"They are not very good at melee with line troops, and you really don't want to put them in that type of situation, but if they are in some light woods with cover, or scouting the flanks they get the job done.' That seems an odd statement to me. My understanding is that they were paired with riflemen in order to provide someone for the rifles to rally on and, since they had bayonets, they provided the 'muscle' to the light contingent. Of course I may very well be wrong as I'm going from memory. |
Early morning writer | 14 Mar 2014 8:06 p.m. PST |
Whether you paint them up is a personal choice. If you need historical battle justification then do further research and make your decision – either yes or no as far as adding them to your collection. However, if, like me, you want them just because you want them – then you paint them and add them to games as ever you wish. Personally, I'm going with fictional campaigning for the AWI – though reserving historical games when desired. I'll certainly have the right collection (once painted) to do so. I plan on six light battalions which means 36 stands of figures for my basing scheme and that means one light stand to each of the 36 battalions in my main north, south, central groupings – kind of works out nice as I can paint one stand with each battalion in its turn and end up with nice variety in my lights. I do plan to paint matching hats on some of the units – to reflect Lafayette's reported influence. Is this accurate history? Doesn't matter if I end with figures I enjoy using. The key is have fun – history is our inspiration, not our restriction. |
oldnorthstate | 14 Mar 2014 8:56 p.m. PST |
American "light infantry" was fundamentally different from their British counterparts. The British lights were specifically trained to operate as separate units in a variety of roles and to some degree emulate the flexibility of their American counterparts. On the other hand the American lights, were initially largely riflemen. The rifle units were then supplemented with "picked" men both at Brandywine and Monmouth, who were mainly veterans who could operate in different formations and roles. The "lights" at Stony Point were simply companies that had experience and could be counted on to undertake a complicated raid. Even Lafayette's light corps late in the war was essentially veteran units. db |
cavcrazy | 14 Mar 2014 8:58 p.m. PST |
Dn Jackson: Maybe you misunderstood me, My statement was "They are not very good at melee with line troops, and you really don't want to put them in that type of situation." Was the first part. The second has nothing to do with the first in terms of melee, they are good in woods holding a position, in the rules we game with if fired upon in the woods because they are light troops, the only take 1/4 casualties, half damage for being lights, and 1/4 for being lights in cover. and they do very well at scouting. As for protecting the rifles, in our games the only ones who get close to rifles have been other light infantry, and my lights usually do protect my rifles
I should have been more clear. I game with a group who are developing a rules system for the AWI, it is very good and works well
..when we have worked out all the bugs we will post them for people to try out. |
Bill N | 14 Mar 2014 9:27 p.m. PST |
Historygamer-I believe in his orders to Morgan Greene referred to the continentals as "corps of light infantry of 320 men detached from the Maryland line", so I do feel it is correct to say there was Continental light infantry present at Cowpens. Whether that was anything more than a title of the unit or a description of the mission of the troops is another matter. |
historygamer | 15 Mar 2014 5:47 a.m. PST |
So my understanding is that Washington sent the real Lights north with Dearborn and then created new Lights for the Brandywine campaign under Maxwell. IIRC, the Lights with Maxwell performed average at best, and were quickly folded back into the ranks after that campaign (and with the return of Dearborn's men). Further, I doubt the Lights with Maxwell would have had time (or perhaps even cause) to change their uniforms to what we think Lights, for the Americans, looked like. IIRC, the Lights played no part in the Monmouth battles due to a misunderstandng (or poorly written orders) and were off on the flank somewhere. Cavcrazy, I understand what you are saying, and feel the "lights" at Cowpens were in name only, and did not wear any special uniforms. I think at that point each regiment had a light company, but usually the Americans did not mass them the way the Brits did. Usually. Yorktown being an exception – and even then there appears to be a number of hat units in those ranks. In looking at some OB's I see the name "Lights" used liberally – in some cases even for militia units. It's my own point of view that after looking at all this, my conclusions are that a.) they weren't really in many battles – at least as separate troops, and b.) they didn't really achieve the sort of elite status (based on performance) that the Brit lights should be rated. As far as using Lights in a skirmish line – I can't find any evidence of that, especially for the Americans – as that seems more of a Napoleonic tactic than AWI – but I'd certainly be interested to hear if anyone has something more on that. While off the Lights subject, here is another oddity. In reading Ewald's Journal, I couldn't help note the fact that the British Cavalry was often buried in the march columns somewhere, and not up front leading. At least that's where they were at Brandywine and a few other battles. I wonder if they were to be used more as a pursuit force that scouting? |
vtsaogames | 15 Mar 2014 11:38 a.m. PST |
I imagine that the light infantry didn't have helmets and such until after France entered the war. Before that they wore whatever passed for regimental uniform. The colonies didn't have the wherewithal to uniform them any other way. Greene's light troops didn't wear such getup either. Many wore rifle smocks in place of worn out regimental uniforms. British light infantry were treated as flank companies who could also skirmish. I imagine the American lights were perceived the same way. The rifle troops were separate from the light infantry, who were usually musket-armed and equipped with bayonets. In the Rebel army, there weren't always enough bayonets to go around. Or musket cleaning equipment, etc. British Cavalry was often buried in the march columns Cavalry may not have been as useful scouting in the close wooded terrain as light infantry who used stealth. A man on foot can hide behind a tree or bush better than a horse. |
oldnorthstate | 15 Mar 2014 6:29 p.m. PST |
" I couldn't help note the fact that the British Cavalry was often buried in the march columns somewhere, and not up front leading. At least that's where they were at Brandywine and a few other battles" During Cornwallis' advance from Osborne Hill at Brandywine two squadrons of the 16th Dragoons were deployed on the right of the British Guard Brigade. At Monmouth several troops of British light dragoons pursued the retreating Americans and attempted to charge the 2nd Rhode Island and 4th New York at the hedgerow but were driven off
they ended up working their way around the American right flank and it was the threat posed by them that caused the Americans to retire from the hedgerow and over the middle causeway. db |
historygamer | 15 Mar 2014 9:39 p.m. PST |
Doesn't that battle make you wonder where the hapless Continental cavalry was? If ever there was a field for cavalry, it was Monmouth. Of course the heat was crushing. I was aware of the 17th at Monmouth, and of their rebuff from a good volley. I know down south the QR horse were often used out front, as were the mounted jagers. I think it is telling that the Brits sent the 16th home. |
Supercilius Maximus | 16 Mar 2014 5:22 a.m. PST |
Having walked the Monmouth field, I'd have to say it's not really good cavalry terrain, unlike, say, the vast open plains in Europe. American farms became enclosed much earlier than their European counterparts, with stone/rail fences around pretty much every field (in Europe, at this time they were still using such boundary markers to keep livestock OUT of crop fields, kitchen gardens etc, rather than restrain them). Combined with the tall crops/grass (it was June), the frequent orchards and copses, and the gulleys and brooks criss-crossing the battlefield, any sweeping cavalry manoeuvre would have been a very difficult thing to organise, much less carry out. There were several local charges by the 16th LD on the day, but none went home and most were driven off at long range by formed infantry with a continuous front and protected flanks. Excluding deserters, the 16th's casualties in men and horses were very light, suggesting none of the attacks was pressed that hard. (For those who don't know, the "hedgerow" at Monmouth is in reality a rail fence with a few trees and shrubs growing into and around it at fairly long intervals. It's not the Normady bocage idea of a hedgerow.) |
Supercilius Maximus | 16 Mar 2014 5:47 a.m. PST |
For a good breakdown of who and when the "light infantry" of the Contienntal Army were, try and get hold of a copy of Fred Anderson Berg's "Encyclopedia of Continental Army Units". Some comments:- 1) Dearborn's light infantry was formed specifically to protect Morgan's riflemen AFTER they arrived in the Northern Theatre. The men of Dearborn's command were drawn from the infantry of the Northern Army, not Washington's Main Army. The idea was to provide 2-3 musket-and-bayonet men for each rifleman, following the European fashion of protecting the slower-to-reload rifles. 2) Morgan had a separate command in the Monmouth campaign which was mostly made up from the rifle-armed men of certain State Lines – sometimes complete companies, sometimes just odd men who were specifically armed that way. I think this was one of the occasions where Washington had rifles brought out of storage to distribute to "picked men" assigned to Morgan. The "picked men" of Lee's command at Monmouth were not light infantry; they were more in the nature of grenadiers as they were the best of the Continental centre companies. 3) Maxwell's light infantry corps of 1777 was similar to the Morgan/Dearborn corps at Saratoga, but I think entirely musket armed. It was composed of small detachments of "picked men" (usually about 25, commanded by a subaltern) from each Continental regiment. 4) The Corps of Light Infantry proper came about in 1779 and was mad possible by the establishment of integral "light companies" in every Continental regiment/battalion. Following the British practice, these light companies were swiftly "converged" into separate battalions; these were the units commanded by Wayne at Stony Point. This left the line regiments with no integral light infantry, so they formed another flank company from picked men of the centre companies. However, these too were later converged and added to the Corps of Light Infantry. 5) La Fayette supposedly brought caps, flags, and the red-and-black feathers that identified the Corps later in the war. There is no doubt that the Corps of Light Infantry became the strike force of the Continental Army, and the equivalent of the "Cornwallis Dream Force" – the combined Grenadier/Light battalions. Whether they were as good is another matter, but their performances at Stony Point and Redoubt 10 were certainly all that was asked of them. In terms of individual skills, an ordinary private from a centre company who was a good shot would usually be "kept in mind" if any special detail was required – at Lexington, Percy's men kept the enemy at a distance from the survivors of Smith's column by sending out known marksmen from the centre companies of the 4th and 23rd (ie just bog standard "hat" men) to deal with snipers in the surrounding houses and gardens (the incident is mentioned in, I think, Barker's account of the day). 6) The problem with discussing "skirmishing" and whether troops were, or weren't, capable of it, is really moot in this period. Wargamers tend to think in terms of the Napoleonic form of the tactic, which was to screen the main attack – in the AWI, such a tactic usually WAS the main attack, with the close order troops following up as a solid reserve to fall back on, or reinforce them. Skirmish formations were more in the nature of thinner, or rather longer/extended lines (ie bigger gaps between files) than a "swarm" of men each taking advantage of whatever cover they could find – the AWI version was a lot more controlled, the napoleonic version much more individualistic. |
historygamer | 16 Mar 2014 1:22 p.m. PST |
So I did some more research on the topic, and now I remember why I stay away from American Lights. It is a confusing topic to say the least. Their performance at Stony Point was good, though odds were over 2:1. The assault on Redoubt 10 – 70 men to 400 – well, I suspect militia could have taken it with those odds. I see some references to Lights off and on during the southern campaign – I guess MD, DE and VA Lights. Interesting that when Morgan returned to the main army Washington stood the new Lights completely down – even though most (all?) of Morgan's men were riflemen. From a wargame perspective, I don't see a pressing need for Continental Light troops. I'm still staring my unpainted pack. Maybe. :-) |
Supercilius Maximus | 16 Mar 2014 3:04 p.m. PST |
I think where they offer a benefit to wargamers is that it gives an American player something with which to counter the battlehardend army of Cornwallis in the South (in the same way that Greene has the Maryland brigade). |
oldnorthstate | 16 Mar 2014 4:47 p.m. PST |
" The "picked men" of Lee's command at Monmouth were not light infantry; they were more in the nature of grenadiers as they were the best of the Continental centre companies" Depends on how you define the difference between lights and grenadiers
I would define Lee's force of "picked men" as the most experienced veterans, being able to perform a range of tasks, including operating as light infantry and having enough experience and training to form a reliable force when formed in close order. db |
Bill N | 17 Mar 2014 9:10 p.m. PST |
Let me ask you this Historygamer-What exactly do you mean by "American lights"? Are you referring only to specially trained elite companies of continentals wearing distinctive uniforms that served as combined units? If so then before Lafayette I think they would be somewhat rare. It might be worth painting up a few and mixing them in with continentals wearing conventional uniforms, but I wouldn't go nuts. |
historygamer | 18 Mar 2014 4:55 p.m. PST |
Yes Bill, those are the culprits. I have a bag of Blue Moon Continental Lights and I am wondering if it is worth the effort. This is an interesting topic, to say the least. :-) |
Virginia Tory | 25 Apr 2014 11:01 a.m. PST |
But now Blue Moon have released Saratoga British and French troops! There's something else new and shiny to distract us, HG! |
GROSSMAN | 29 Apr 2014 12:23 p.m. PST |
If you got them paint them, if you paint them use them. I just got 30 OG off ebay 50% off so I will put them in the paint que. |