"WHY?" Topic

The Question is this.

1. It is obvious that a woman's body is attractive to males, and Just as obvious that it is attractive as a pure form. That is as a compendium of curves and lines, surfaces and attitudes (poses).

2. One can also understand the addition of costume that is designed to enhance and reveal and such of it that "covers" enhances through the mystery and cloaking that which is desired.

What I do not see is how the addition of weapons, especially out of scale ones, and fanciful helmets, bits of armor that armor nothing, and all the like, enhances the female form in any way and makes it more beautiful. Aren't you mixing symbols and metaphors here? confusing the implements of violence and brutality with the "Luxuria" of the women? Are people incapable of sex without violence?

Otto, I completely agree with you. Such figures are ones you will never find in my collections.

If she has a weapon, you can legitimately use her as a troop in a wargame, or a character in an RPG.

No weapon, and she's pretty, but useless for gaming.

No, I think it's more basic male thinking than that:

Female figure w/o weapons = too much like the real thing, with their feelings and fashion sense and weird ideas about the future and elaborate wedding plans and all those other "female" things men do not understand;

Female figure with weapons – she's out to kill stuff and get XP. This we do understand. Give her suggestive armor and a big sword and she becomes one of the guys, albeit much better-looking. And since we now understand her, she is less mysterious and threatening, and therefore more approachable.

No weapon, and she's pretty, but useless for gaming.

I disagree. There is plenty of scope in games for unarmed figures, both male and female. It merely depends upon the scenario in question.

If you think naked women who are unarmed are not dangerous you have never wandered into the wrong locker room at shower time.

lmao Napthyme. Are you talking from experience

@Wolfen Never been that lucky my friend…

As an admirer of the female form, I agree that most of those figures do look rather silly.

Well perhaps the costumes help to enhance the interest. Victoria secret makes a lot of money selling "outfits" for women to wear.

yes, and no. It depends.

Some times I think folks just think too hard about stuff.

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar.

Oooops, wrong gender.

Aren't you mixing symbols and metaphors here? confusing the implements of violence and brutality with the "Luxuria" of the women?

I agree with you Otto. To me it's like putting hot fudge sauce on my pizza – two good things that just don't go together.

On the other hand. Who am I to tell someone else what to have on his pizza?

'Are people incapable of sex without violence?'

Why not combine the two, they are the two things we evolved to do anyway.

Isn't this really about male chauvinism? We just assume that a female is incapable of playing one of these games? That she might want a fighter as a character instead of someone to just stand in the background and look pretty and when the battle is over she can bring the men the snacks. My girlfriend is a participant in many of our games. She wants to be a fighter because she's a fencer in real life ( and a damn good one,I wouldn't want to face her in a real sword fight). And she wants her character to " look sexy".

C'mon guys , a woman can be pretty and sexy and kick your behind.

what jowady said

Dear Zippyfusenet

O THANKS SO VERY MUCH for that mental image! I'm now off my feed for a few days.

Otto

Weapons and armour are not sexy.

But this is not a wargaming site, its a miniatures site. Many of the miniatures posted on this board don't even have weapons.

"Weapons and armour are not sexy."

Wrong, many men find the idea sexy, that a woman is strong and still attracted to him.

link

I think there is a subliminal factor here, but to respond to some hypothesis advanced.

Alte Fritz is perfectly right. Did a lot of Ad&D and unarmed female charaters were quite useful and interesting. Added a lot to play and the game, but then many of my games were under GM's that did not over-emphasize combat. Also, the games focused more on the role playing than the stats.

Having been a champion fencer in my youth I understand, and have experienced the female as combatant and that's all fine. But I never saw a female on the mat with pads only on the most ephemeral areas, no mask, and with a boudoir-loincloth covering her pubic area-- barely. Maybe if I had I would have stayed with the sport longer.

As for the argument from evolution, are you willing to accept ALL that that means- literally we can be no more than that? If so why do we not act and live like animals all the time. Clothes at the very least set us off as do at the very least rights of the dead and care of offspring through the whole live of the creature. But beyond that the ideas of aesthetics impel us to create forms representing beauty (either in the male or the female) to perpetuate it and idealize it. You can't cook that out of evolution, and evolution will not countenance the persistence of desire beyond coitus. But more than that we humans have developed the whole rigamarole of seduction, which is NOT the same as "mating rituals" in animals, which is where evolution dumps you out at the end of the line. It is in the long, languid ritual of seduction which begins long before any display of pulchritude occurs that the real pleasure of sex is to be found. The whole gift-giving, attention giving, the slow advances, the opportunities taken, and the "here you may touch, but there you may not--- yet-- perhaps" the whole intricate dance, the impromptu and impertinent advance with the indignant rejection of "what kind of girl do you think I am" is all part of it.

As for the Lingerie and suggestive outfits, I once had a woman friend tell me that these things were rarely desired by women until in fact, the seduction was working and they wore these things underneath their normal clothes so that when their intended discovered this there was the "Oh gee-- maybe I AM that type of girl after All!" All of which simply is a means of punting the ball down the road and increasing the delicious possibilities of a future to be attained.

OK, now to my own suspicions.

I think that these figures cater to wargamers who are intimidated and phobic about women. The weapons are NOT really weapons but safeguards of chastity on the one hand, and tokens of the conception of a rapacious, fearsome sexuality of women. I remember once seeing in a catalog for D&D miniatures, a picture of a female fighter in typical perfectly useless armor with her pubic area covered with an ornate and spiky metal which had at the base of it, almost in the very crotch a skull with its fanged mouth opening at exactly the point where the labia and entrance to the Vagina would be. One need not have much psychology to get the message there- the image of the voracious -- and castrating female.

I think all these have less to do with feminine beauty and sex, but rather as an image of oppositional and antagonistic femininity which then, in threating the male, is a legitimate object for rape. "She had it coming." as it were.

I guess I'm old fashioned, but when I see these females I always think. "Ummm do you suppose you could put some clothes on so I could take you to Maxime's and give you flowers and begin a proper seduction?

I guess I kind of agree with OSchmidt. Jowady and alizardincrimson2, I also agree with you – my girlfriend is an avid gamer, and she likes to have female figures who are armed, but she wants realistic proportions and armor or some cool stuff to wear. She detests models which have almost no clothing and serve, as OSchmidt said, as a projection of misogyny.

Otto,
Well stated. I guess I am old fashioned as well, since I agree with you completely.

Dear Nnascati

Thank you, it is good to see I am not alone.
I wonder what Cpt Shandy said that got his post deleted.

I do think this is an important issue, as I believe it is one of the reasons that turns off female players. It's not that they are hostile or phobic about the game, but the expectations of them.

Now, if there were only a way to convince figure makers to make some of the more restrained models.

OSchmidt, I myself deleted my message because I posted it double – no censorship, just clumsiness on my part.
Hm, and either Wiznard has completely misunderstood what you wrote or I have…

I believe it is a mass conspiracy by all the miniatures manufacturers .
They have deliberately designed these female warriors to keep male gamers in the hobby and scare them away from all the real life women .
Unfortunately lots of us succumb to real life girls,but a few do stick with the hobby with others managing to balance both by secretly having a relationship with the missus and an affair with the odd Celtos female barbarian.

applause
thank you thee!

Dear Cpt Shandy

OK. Yes I think Wiznard has rather misunderstood the post. Methinks he doeth protest too much.

By the way one of the most interesting things on this aspect of the "barbarian Hottie" was a series of Games that Cleo Liebl put on at Historicon about a decade ago and which lasted several years. She ran an "Amazon" game which was "women only" and was designed to let some of the wargame widows temporarily abandoned by their husbands for the convention to play in a game, both giving them something to do, and trying to demystify the hobby, and to perhaps change some attitudes. I watched unobtrusively from about 8 ft away and said nothing during the games.

I watched this first game which had Amazons versus Gauls, where the Amazons were out to capture breeding stock.
Of course I did not play, was not allowed to, but it was quite interesting for the following things. About twelve women, some of them already gamers, but most being the intended crowd – non gaming wargame widows, some pushing baby strollers, played in the game. What was interesting was the following.

1.All the women were active participants, eager, excited, involved in the game, even when they had to quiet obstreperous infants.

2. All of the non gamers caught on to the rules INSTANTLY! There was not one who languished or "didn't get it.

3. After a few minutes, until the spirit of the game took over and everyone was acquainted, the attitudes, postures, and vocabulary of the women became lewder, cruder, and more bellicose. Postures and body language became identical to male gamers, and the jokes flew fast and furious and were as sexist and sometimes mean as the jokes men do. Also in evidence was the typical whining male games do about "no support" or "Hey, you're leaving my flank open…" and so forth.

4. I noticed that male gamers would come up to the table, obviously drawn by the curiosity and the racket, and would look at the table from a few feet away, and when they saw what was going on and it was all women- honest to God their eyes seemed to bug out like a cartoon characters and they beat a hasty retreat.

It was one of the most interesting incidences of animal behavior I ever saw and opened my eyes to the implications of why our games don't have an allure for women that role playing did.

Cleo continued her program and did this for a few years, including changing the scenario. Most were the same but when the mix was changed I noticed significant and telling changes, which indicate significant things we ought to know.

B. In one game she had mixed genders on both sides. Men and women on both sides. In this game, THE EXACT SAME WOMEN who were so boisterous and agitated before retreated into what we usually see, detached, indifferent, looking terribly like they wanted to be anywhere else, often hostile, – lassitude and protests that they 'Don't understand the rules" when I KNEW they understood them perfectly before. I also noticed that the guys all adopted the patronizing "Heh-Heh-Heh, let me handle this for you little lady-- and proceeded to take over, push them aside and just let them roll dice as a consolation prize.
My thought was "check the cellar for pods."

C. In one game Cleo repeated it with the men on one side, the women on the other, with spouses on opposite sides.

Well--- there was blood on the walls! The game was vicious, competitive, and nasty, and it seemed like one couple was going to be calling divorce lawyers after the convention! Certainly hubby was not getting anything that night! Oh yeah-- the women (who were commanding the Gauls) SLAUGHTERED the Amazons

I also noticed that the one or two unattached females (daughters of gamers who were gamers themselves) shamelessly flirted with one or two younger guys across the way, even though they were married, and when the men seemed absolutely unfazed, the girls turned into vicious harpies. It seemed their obsession with the figures, the tactics and the games was taken as a rejection of their beauty or attractiveness. But of course that's too small a sample.

Now Cleo just did the game for joy and had no idea of proving a point or doing any experimentation, but the observations I made for myself were fascinating.

I've been trying to make observations on this when I put on other games to try and figure out how to make the game more accessible to females, or rather, to prevent it turning them off.

One game involved, just by chance my "ersatz grand daughter." She's the daughter of a dear friend, whose whole family (her son, the daughter, herself and her husband) to gamers and now they are all avidly in the hobby." Well, the girl, let's call her ummm Barbie, because she LOOKS like Barbie, very hot, long legs, beautiful body and face, is in this game I am giving at Historicon, and it's a difficult game. "Barbie" is wearing a tight blouse and pair of Daisy-mae's and is cleaning up the table top, slaughtering her foes with glee and I notice that the other side, all young guys isn't looking at the table top. They're looking at her. She could have literally taken a snow-shovel and scooped their troops up and tossed them in the trash and the guys wouldn't have noted. I called "Barbie aside" and told her this and asked if I she wanted to call the game. She said "No, I'm having fun, and if those idiots want to watch me rather than how I'm flagrantly cheating…" Of course all the guys hit on her, but well--- talk about mass castration. She shot them all down-- and rudely!

In another game I actually used several figures of the type we are talking about (in 28mm) as officers in the game. Babes with oversized boobs, wearing almost nothing at all with huge oversized weapons and of course very uncomfortable spiky armor. Now in the game the use of these officers is to pump up troop values, so if an officer had a value of 1 it could raise the rollof a die by one, if he had three he could raise by three etc. The four figures I put on the field in the group of officers for one side all were "5" the highest roll. The rest of the troops were historical from the Renaissance, and I said I couldn't find the other figures, the historical ones for these,and I used these as a substitute.

In the game there are certain things, chance cards which call for one side or the other to lose officers by occasionally odd or random events. The guy on that side picks one of these "hot babes" to be lost, even though he had plenty of low-level "ones." When I asked him why he was picking a "5" rather than a "1" he just shrugged and said he figured this would be the most likely officer to be lost…. however… there was a 1 right next to that hot babe 5.

By the end of the game ALL of the "5" hot babes had been lost, and all of them when there was no reason to.

Now.. I tell you these tales only as a curious point which leads me to believe that these are clues as to subliminal attitudes the preponderance of males in the hobby have which limits or "shuns" or turns off women.

You can argue that the samples are too small to be scientific, and I will agree with you. However, I will submit that they are much more valuable and make up for their lack of size by the fact that the subjects do not know they are being studied.

Watch for these things in games and see what you see.

one of these figures we are talking about

I believe it is a mass conspiracy by all the miniatures manufacturers .
They have deliberately designed these female warriors to keep male gamers in the hobby and scare them away from all the real life women .

I agree completely, except, those people who express an unhealthy interest in, or or wax philosophical about, said figures are not very likely to have much to contribute to the female of the species (I asked several to confirm this fact), possibly the species in general (part two of the question). T'is good that said figures are available to occupy their minds (part three of my pop quizz).

regards
dave

Dear OSchmidt,

thanks, those are very interesting observations. This topic is something dear to me – as I already said my girlfriend is a gamer (and a very good one if you read my blog) and my idea of wargaming is that it should be an open, accessible hobby that encourages diversity. I also try to get kids and non-gamers to at least have a go, often they have prejudices about such games that stem from the phenomena you talk about, like how the figures look, or illustrations in rulebooks, or the general behavior of men in stores and (especially) on the web.
When I was at TACTICA (a German show) last month I noticed lots of active female players, painters and shoppers, much more than I would have expected from reading magazines or websites (I had a similar experience at CRISIS).
Interestingly, the field of sci-fi and fantasy fandom seems to be much farther regarding equal access, and they have quite self-conscious discussions about chauvinism etc.

Wiznard, why don't you read again what OSchmidt wrote? There'll be a test tomorrow ;-) (Btw, your last paragraph gives you away)

Wiznard, I'll only answer once:
1. Yes, of course it could be that the business is growing because of those figures. And? Doesn't make it any better.
2. It is very patronizing and chauvinistic of you to assume that spouses are forced into the hobby – you seem to assume that they wouldn't develop any interest of their own.
3. I was referring to the lamentations about sexual harassment policies which usually stems from a very clear political agenda. Together with your (deliberate?) misreading of OSchmidts post it made me think that you have no real interest in the discussion but just want to push your own agenda.

So, now I would like to get back to the civilized discussion we just had…

Dear Wiznard

I normally don't answer people like you. As Captain Shandy Said you obviously didn't read the posts, and confused when I was addressing other theories and debating them, many were no that they were my own. Second, there are many many studies and papers printed on the latent mysogeny in gaming. This does not mean ALL players are that way, but SOME are. I refer you to a work on "Shared Consciousness" (I might be wrong on the name, but it is a psychological and sociological study of role playing games.) In perhaps the most wincing example given, one group of male role playing games said to a group of female gamers (both within the confines of the adventure as characters ) "What's the matter with you women, don't you WANT to get raped." They were deadly serious, not joking, as part of their characters. The women were supposedly in the same party.

That, in a small way these figures, and the absolutely boorish attitude that some of the examples given on how gamers treat women is an indication of how far we have degraded in our cultural values and society from the Victorian days when there were strict and stringent codes of conduct that enforced decorum, respect, and gentlemanly and chivalrous conduct on men in the presence of ladies, and which differentiated the "gentleman" from a "cad."

A cultural high point we would do well to go back to.

It is of course no surprise to me that you like degenerate art. You have said it, not I. I suspect that my words enrage you, but it is your conscience that provides the bitter sting.

As for the "lowering of the bar in Canadian Universities" I deplore that myself as merely evidence of the "nanny state" but at the same time such may be necessary in a culture which considers it fine to rever to women as "ho's" "Byytches" delights in pornography in every day life and popular songs which glorify the life of the pimp and and laud their beating, and rape, and in which most males feel they are owed indiscriminate sex simply because they exist, and that, as the gamers above said "What's the matter with you women, don't you want to be raped?"

You must be happy. There is more than enough degenerate art to satisfy you.

As to your statistics that rape and sexual assault is down, please cite your source.

My source for the following is the Statistics of the US Department of Justice, the American Medical Association and the Journal of Psychotherapy. (I may not have that last one right) The following figures are for the United States, but other agencies note that the incidence of rape in the United States is lowest than most of the rest of the western world.

There were 125,000 rapes in the United States in 2010.

Of these 91% were of women.

Of all the rapes 99% of the perpetrators were males, and of the 9% of the rapes which were men, 99% of those were male on male rapes.

The American Medical Association AND the Department of Justice, estimate that rape is the most-under reported crime, with only 25% of rapes being reported. If this is true then the number of rapes in the United States is (4x125,000=500,000, half a million rapes every year, and of those 445,000 were male on female rapes, of the balance, of 55,000, 54,450 were rapes of males on males is 54,450, and (these rapes are Not cases of child molestation which are NOT counted in the numbers, and that of the remaining 550 rapes which would be female rapes of OTHER FEMALES and males, represents around 1% The Justice department also lists only about a few dozen cases of female on male rape.

Oh yes, in I believe 23% of the cases the women raped by men was also severely battered and or murdered. There is not one case of a female raping a female which involved serious battery or murder. I suspect, being an advocate of degenerate art which the juxtaposition of violence and sex in these figures is, really excites you.

It is small wonder why women don't drown their male children at birth like puppies. We seem to be their greatest danger.

My experience other gamers deserves no apology, if any apology is due it is to women for the crimes my gender perpetrates on them.

I do however make allowances for people like you, who have been affected obviously, by the degradation and ghettoizing of our culture. You obviously had an indifferent upbringing. I was brought up with the idea to respect and honor women, and was told that if I ever was crude, rude, dishonored or was not gentlemanly and chivalrous to women, that God, in his high heaven, no matter what matter he was doing at the time would turn around and point directly to me and say "I saw that!" and punishment would be long, painful, and unforgiving. My father also told me that after God was through with me I would be worked over with a baseball bat and thrown out of the house. Believe me, there was NO hyperbole or exaggeration in his words.

When I was younger, from 1965 to 1971 I was a police reporter for a major city in New Jersey. I saw in that time more than enough rapes and rapes and murder, including some people I had known in High School, I went to the morgue several times and saw a former classmate who had been carved up by her assailant. She was recognizeable only a prominent mole on her shoulder. So I have seen the consequences of mysogeny up close and personal.

I'm happy that you have sensibilities that are more in tune with our modern culture. It must make you far less dissatisfied with the modern world and fit in so much better.

Dear Captain Shandy

Yes, I have heard that, and seen it at several Fantasy sci-fi conventions. I wonder what is at work there.

Recently I have been "evangelizing war games" to other people. One of the things I have had rather odd success in is in getting whole families into war games. I mentioned the one family above, and have moved on to another family, where the husband is a co-worker and has become a very good friend, and we socialize together and go on trips and shows. He's a Civil War Re-enactor and is getting along in years and I think he feels it might be easier on the knees and back to do war games than tote a color around the field. His wife is also a re-enactor and a master seamstress. She makes costume for theatrical productions and made all the outfits for Norm (her husband) and her daughter Brianna. This daughter, Brianna, is a real scamp and at 18 was tending towards re-enacting as "Bell Watley" from Gone with the Wind rather than Scarlett O'Hara. She's present 25, but she was doing this since 17.

Anyway, Brianna and her now fiancé, Ryan have been D&D gamers for a while and play lots of Euro games, and a few months ago I invited them over to a historical miniatures game. They fit right in and had fun, and wanted to play again. Norm has suborned HIS best friend Doug into coming to our Summer convention in June in Lancaster,(Called "The Weekend") and he's looking forward to it as is his wife Kim, and their daughter Dana. Dana is a gamer too. There was a woman at work who overheard us talking about the games and with another woman, who has been over to dinner with her son Jarrod, who is entranced by "the lads" on the shelf. This other woman who was listening found it fascinating and I loaned her a book on it and gave her some descriptions. I think she'd like to be asked over.

You see, I recount this only because as you said there is clear evidence of the greater penetration of the Sci-Fi and Role Playing conventions by women, and what I see with guests to my own group. I can't help but wonder how this interest is shut off (and desperately trying not to do that, but as I don't know the cause. I'm also trying to figure out what the difference is. I only have suppositions and theories…

Now, I've been running "The Weekend" for five years now, and there already ARE several women who come, AND PLAY one or two more just come out for the shopping in the Lancaster area, but nothing stands out as the "Eureka" moment. With about 60 attendees that's a larger female contribution than normal.

Why am I so eager for female participation? Well, I'll tell you. It seems that the cons and games go nicer when women are around, gamers behave themselves better and everyone has more fun. We have the wildest and craziest discussions around "The Munchie Pit" and everyone gets along great. I have no doubt the guys are on their best behavior… but…. I can't figure out why…

Dear Oschmidt,

that's a great project, we are planning something similar this summer, only on a much smaller scale… invite some non-wargamer friends over for a weekend to have a go at a miniatures game.

I admire Wil Wheaton very much for what he does with his show Tabletop, which provides a very low-threshold introduction to board gaming (though he also featured roleplaying games and at least one wargame (X-Wing)). The thing is that he somehow manages to make people forget every prejudice they have about this type of games (and prejudices about the people associated) and shows how much fun can be had. Just ignore everyone who says this is not for girls, this is no proper historical game, you are not one if us if you do this, you are not supposed to do that because of blah etc. – all those petty self-appointed frontier-guards – and have fun with people you like, regardless of gender, colour or creed. That's what gaming is about for me. But I am getting lost and away from the topic at hand ;-)

ok, guys
as a token female gamer since the age of 7….

the "man-splaining" is going to make me vomit.

you all have good points
(I do admit my eyes glazed over at one points so probably missed some details)

-I love my "degenerate art" too. And I love painting naked chicks. and dudes. not enough of those to paint, alas.
- misogyny is rampant in the gaming world (and the rest of the world)
-Oschmidt…you're coming off as extraordinarily creepy.
"I watched unobtrusively from about 8 ft away and said nothing during the games." *shudder*
Your gentle, concerned misogyny is much more poisonous than any overt holes at the table.
-Thee's responses were strident (enough to annoy Shandy)but are well and clearly stated and I, mostly, agree with him
-Dave… I slap upside the head with a rubber chicken. not for anything he's posted. Just 'cause.

there is so much more I could say

in the end
these are miniatures and games. they can reflect our ideas of the world and mire us in philosophical debates until the end of the universe.

but they are games

The badly-spelt Wiznard of Od wrote:

If only the truth of your cause could be discerned by the quantity of your words, truly you would have us all beat. If only…

The truth of OSchmidt's words can be determined in another way, namely by reading and understanding them. I commend the method to you; you clearly haven't attempted it yet.

John.

Owwww!

Dear Cpt Shandy

That's GREAT! Where by the way are you doing this project? It sounds ideal. My only caution would be to always make the camaraderie and fun, and socializing the central focus of the weekend. Don't let the game intrude too much or it might turn off the friends. We've acquired a bad reputation unfortunately and we have to be careful of that.

On the other topic I have never heard about this activity of Will Wheaton. Where is this show to be seen. I probably won't be able to get it as I have only a very small basic cable selection and if it's not there I can't get it. Still it's very good that something is being done on this venue. Fascinating, I never knew.

Dear Alazardin Crimson.

As for my "creepiness" and alleged "gentle misogyny" feel free to contact Cleo Liebl, a well known wargaming celebrity, prodigious painter, gamer, and and collector Editor of the HMGS newsletter and others, to see how wrong you are."

I fail to see how observing people and heir actions and reactions is "misogynous" It's simple observation. Or… is it the retelling of the observations what you don't like.

if you want to find out what people really think. Don't ask them, they will almost invariably lie when they know they're being asked or watched. It's when they don't realize they're being watched and by the actions they do that you find out the truth.

It's when they don't realize they're being watched and by the actions they do that you see the best stuff.

pretty sure there are laws against this. ;-)

As for my "creepiness" and alleged "gentle misogyny" feel free to contact Cleo Liebl, a well known wargaming celebrity, prodigious painter, gamer, and and collector Editor of the HMGS newsletter and others, to see how wrong you are."

or it could just be what you are writing comes across as creep to Alizard in Crimson, Ms/Mrs Leibl may well have a different opinion, doesn't mean Liz is right or wrong, it's her opinion. Also helps if you bother to get her name right when replying – Alizard not Alazard.

I don't know. A lot of this seems "creepy" to me as well.

Absolutely unbelievable.

With all this crap it is better to stop the "need more boobies" category; please