Last Hussar | 08 Mar 2014 8:02 p.m. PST |
Some years ago I was trying to write a platoon game with delayed hit resolution. Simply you marked the number of dice to be rolled on the target, but did not resolve until they activated. The player of the target unit would declare what the squad/section would do, and the to hit number depended on the action it was taking. It meant that troops couldn't act know how badly affected the enemy was – they knew the volume of fire, but didn't have perfect knowledge of state. Then I discovered Troops Weapons and Tactics by TFL, and left the rules 'mostly finished' but needing a polish. I'm thinking if revisiting this idea. I'm also looking at doing a higher level set of rules – prob 1 base = Company. Is the delayed resolution still a valid mechanism at company up level, or is the command curve long enough that you'd have an idea? |
vtsaogames | 08 Mar 2014 8:11 p.m. PST |
I like this and have thought about it for WWI. Haven't done more than think about it though. |
Dye4minis | 09 Mar 2014 3:13 a.m. PST |
I think your idea is fresh and innovative. First, to address your original question, Yes, depending on the time scale of what a turn represents, I would lean towards taking more time before that level would discover the effects on the unit to continue with it's mission. Now, back to the lower level tactical use: I am guessing that if a unit declared it was hunkering down, maybe only hits on a 6; if moving across open ground, maybe hits on a 3-6? Again, depending on what kind of fire is sustained. Say 4 dice of "hits" before declaring, unit chooses to advance, fire dice came from arty, (easily tracked by using different colored dice), 1 successful roll makes them freeze in place; 2 freeze plus one casualty; 3- same with 2 casualties, etc. If by small arms, takes 3 to pin 4 to pin and create a casualty
.or some such result, resolved as you describe. Interesting mechanic as it does introduce a fog of war mechanic that is not cumbersome and just might work! Good luck on completing your ideas to paper! (or electrons!) v/r Tom |
MajorB | 09 Mar 2014 6:07 a.m. PST |
I'm sure I've come across a set of rules with such a delayed resolution mechanic before, but I'm afraid I cannot for the life of me remember where? |
79thPA | 09 Mar 2014 6:48 a.m. PST |
It certainly sounds interesting. |
Last Hussar | 09 Mar 2014 7:45 a.m. PST |
Major – Possibly on my blog? link You'll note the credit I give to some TMPers. (this isn't the most complete version either) Basic mechanism a stand is 3-4 men of the same kind, so a UK section is 2 rifle and 1 LMG stand A weapon type has three stats – fire points up to 30 cm, a max range, and fire points between 30 and max When you fire you mark the target with the number of fire points, after splitting between close by bases, then subtracting for cover. When a unit with Fire points against it activates it can declare it is doing 1 of 4 things MOVING BASES- a 4 or more achieves a hit FIRING or RECOVERING (removing pins and suppresses)- a 5 or more is a hit HUNKERING DOWN (can do nothing that turn)- a 6 is needed. All hits are rethrown – 1 Miss, 2-3 Pin, 4-5 Suppress, 6 Kill (2 kills gets rid of the base) |
Last Hussar | 09 Mar 2014 8:05 a.m. PST |
I'm happy to hear opinions, please remember they are a ROUGH version with little playtesting. There are things I might want to change – how the fire is split between multiple bases, the hit results table, effects of cover for instance, but I don't have enough playtesting to try. The ideas I was trying were 1) Until the enemy tries to do something, you don't know what effect your fire has. 2) A pinned or suppressed unit probably need a break in the fire against it to get back to normal- when you rally a pinned/suppressed unit it doesn't spring back fully formed, but instead receives 2 or 4 fire markers respectively. This means it will probably want to spend another turn not moving to get rid of these. I suppose what I'm trying to do is not rolling to kill, but to put down a weight of fire that will allow other units to act unmolested. |
vtsaogames | 09 Mar 2014 10:21 a.m. PST |
Until the enemy tries to do something, you don't know what effect your fire has. I love this. Whereas in most games: I see that machine gun is suppressed, we can run a whole platoon past it. |
Last Hussar | 09 Mar 2014 10:38 a.m. PST |
That is exactly where the idea came from – you know weight of fire, so you can make a good guess at whether it's safe. Each Fire Point has a 1 in 6 chance of stopping a unit from firing. I hope I still have the edit version, with later rules in. The vehicle rules were similar, except with a 'Brew' check. If you hit an enemy tank, you check for 'Obvious Kill', otherwise you have to wait for it to activate to see if its still working. |
MajorB | 09 Mar 2014 10:59 a.m. PST |
Major – Possibly on my blog? No, it wasn't your rules LH. I have a feeling it was in a set of rules published in The Nugget (the journal of Wargame Developments). |
Bertie | 09 Mar 2014 11:27 a.m. PST |
Phil Barker's "The Sharp End" Modern Rules have delayed resolution and work well. You could easily use most of the mechanisms for WWII but they are not 1 base = 1 company scale rules. IMHO the higher you go the less relevant delayed resolution is for direct fire. However in my WWII rules at 1 base = 1 platoon scale, I have delayed resolution for indirect fire and think it is essential so that the attacker does not know how effective his artillery preparation has been until the target is directly engaged by the attacker's tanks or infantry
by which time, if the artillery has not been effective his tanks and infantry could be in for a hard time. Cheers, Bertie |
Martin Rapier | 09 Mar 2014 11:33 a.m. PST |
" I have a feeling it was in a set of rules published in The Nugget " It is a common feature of many of Richard Brooks rules, particularly Terrible Swift Rules are derivatives thereof, Beetroot & Sourkraut etc, plus Ian Drurys Combat 300 and Phil Barkers 'Sharp End', even the randomn move mechanism in IABSM falls into this category. I have come across it in other sets and use it myself, anything to promote fog of war, although it depends on the precise mechanisms and context. No problem at all using it in 1 base = 1 company games, I use it in 1 base = 1 regiment. Essentially the results of activities are only known when their effects are evident, but for admin reasons it is often easier to keep track of things as they happen. Obvious simple things to apply it to are things like digging in, artillery barrages etc. In the latter case you may want to combine some certain effects (obscuration etc) with some uncertain effects (casualties). |
donlowry | 09 Mar 2014 2:25 p.m. PST |
The effect of the fire might depend on what the unit next tries to do, as well as the weight of the fire and any die roll. So that if it tries to move, for instance, it's more likely to take casualties than if it, for instance, takes (or remains in) cover. |
Last Hussar | 09 Mar 2014 3:23 p.m. PST |
Pretty much what my Company game does, but I'm wondering about the transit up to 1 base = 1 company. Don – I believe you get a thank you in the intro page |
Lion in the Stars | 09 Mar 2014 4:50 p.m. PST |
IMHO the higher you go the less relevant delayed resolution is for direct fire. I agree with that. However in my WWII rules at 1 base = 1 platoon scale, I have delayed resolution for indirect fire and think it is essential so that the attacker does not know how effective his artillery preparation has been until the target is directly engaged by the attacker's tanks or infantry
by which time, if the artillery has not been effective his tanks and infantry could be in for a hard time. That's a cool idea! |
Murvihill | 10 Mar 2014 5:16 a.m. PST |
I use delayed resolution to prevent players from rationalizing their fire, that is to prevent the one-hit one-kill thing. Basically each stand gets x number of dice to fire with 6 hitting. The hits are placed either behind the target stand normally or in front for plunging fire. After both sides have fired all their units the targets roll for damage. Most effects are based on the terrain a unit is in but AFV's the dice are based on their armor on the front or side. I guess you could not resolve the damage dice until the target stand does something. The big minus is that your worst chance of a kill is 1:198 (6 on one d6 to hit, 1 on one d6 for defense and 1,2 on d6 for a kill), so when your 20mm shoots a King Tiger and kills it
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Last Hussar | 10 Mar 2014 1:44 p.m. PST |
Murvihill – good point about rationalisation; with delay-until-activation you can't do the precise calculation "I have suppressed, therefore I will now assault" becomes "I have probably put enough fire on to suppress. Damn it, lets put a bit more on THEN assault." Wargamers seem to be too easily sucked into a firefight- for that kind of player they will not be understanding why they lost the game where there is no immediate resolution, thus the temptation to keep firing, rather than risk moving. |
The Traveling Turk | 11 Mar 2014 9:06 a.m. PST |
It reminds me a bit of the "pin" system in Bolt Action. I generally like these sorts of mechanics, but they do have some potential drawbacks. For example: If the enemy knows the quality of the target unit, then he can mentally do the math regarding how many hits he needs to score in order to render that unit statistically unlikely to be able to do X or Y next turn, and thus that encourages him to shoot at a target only until he's gotten the right number of hits, given that target's unit type and quality. That can get a bit gamey. Granted, that sort of godlike intelligence is present in any game in which you can see the effect of your hits on the enemy
which is pretty much any game. The typical fix is to allow some chance of removing those hits before the unit needs to do something
but that would moot the purpose of the system you're describing. |
MajorB | 11 Mar 2014 4:07 p.m. PST |
Tomorrow's War (TW) has a delayed fire resolution mechanic. A unit fires during it's turn and hits are marked on the target unit. The effect of those hits however, is not determined until the traget unit activates during the NEXT turn. |
Last Hussar | 11 Mar 2014 4:07 p.m. PST |
Actually there is a random element – if you look at my explanation above. You mark the number of 'Fire Points' When a Unit activates it declares what it will do. What it does affects the 'To Hit' number of the Fire Points. Each hit is then rolled for to find its effect. A Pinned unit can fire. A Suppressed unit can't do anything. A unit declares FIRE – To hit is 5+ (d6) Suppress is on a 4+ Thus the chance per FP of stopping a unit firing is 2/6 x 3/6 = 6/36 = 1/6. Putting 6 FP on a unit will PROBABLY stop a unit firing, however- 'dice'! |