"Recasting for personal use?" Topic

I know bootlegging anything is pretty wrong, but what if it is for personal use?

I was just wondering what all you TMP'ers out there think:

Is recasting miniatures that you own for personal use and to not make a profit wrong?

Note: I am not recasting miniatures and do not have the means or capabilites to recast miniatures.

absolutely wrong.

example. you just bought a nifty new spoon at the store. You decide you want more so you cast your own using the one you purchased as the master.

Illegal - yes.

I feel pretty strongly that it's wrong.

"Is recasting miniatures that you own for personal use and to not make a profit wrong?"

Ahh, but you are reaping financial benefits by recasting - by not spending the additional $$$ for the figures you want to have.

OK, I'll play devil's advocate, here.

Let's say that you want "X" amount of a particular figure, but the miniatures company that makes it can't or won't supply you with that particular figure, and you even would foot the bill in the extra time and expense to produce them, and the only way you can get that particular figure en masse is through recasting, but you won't be bootlegging the miniature for personal profit.

Now, couldn't the miniatures company make some kind of an accomodation to the customer even if he/she would be willing to pay extra for those figures? Wouldn't they be cheating themselves out of a potential repeat customer, not to mention someone who could spread the word about their product?

And remember, I'm only playing devil's advocate.

Copying work that is not your own is stealing, plain and simple. No different then shop lifting or stealing from the manufacturer.

Yes it's wrong, and even though you may not be profiting you're using the originals to produce X number of copies, rather than paying the manufacturer for the equivalent number of minis. Even losing out on a small sale makes a difference for the majority of manufacturers who are small niche outfits, often doing a service to the hobby by producing minis that the big boys (GW, Reaper) wouldn't touch.

Also, the few people that I have encountered that recasted for "their own use" eventually couldn't resist casting for all of their gaming buddies, relatives, etc.

Here's a simple question you should ask yourself: if you're a manufacturer, would you invest time, effort and money into creating something knowing that you will only ever sell one copy of it? Isen't that what you're saying here, that it's ok to steal someone else's work so long as you are not 'profiting' from it?

John Coviello

Owner/Public Relations Manager

shopofmagic.com

Yes it's illegal but I've often wondered about the morality of casting a few for personal use if the original has been out of production for 15 plus years. There were a few made in the 70s I'd like to have a few of but have not be produced since. I've tried getting some of these on eBay but many have not been seen by me in 20 years much less in quantity.

It will always be wrong, saxondog. You must suffer the inability to have these 'unavailable' minis or risk the peril of your conscience gnawing at your entrails daily. :)

Remember recasting is wrong, kids. However, charging an obscene amount for a single figure (in fact entire lines of figures) is good and healthy for the hobby and also makes the shareholders happy with their dividends.

If you are clever enough to recast,then become clever enough to learn to sculpt your own masters. Theft by any other name ie still stealing.

Even if a figure has not been produced (or even seen) for many years there is economic damage to the owner of the copyright. Recently, there has been a movement in the miniatures industry where small companies purchase the old moulds and masters of now defunct companies and "revive" the range. (Recently Grenadier, Archive/R'Kiiv, Old Dark Age, Grim Reaper, Lance and Laser, Metal Magic/Hobby Products, etc. just to name a few that immediately come to mind). By recasting old figures you limit the POTENTIAL sales of these figures in the future.
Also, you limit the value of the copyright if the original owner decides to sell the range. Who would want to take a risk and revive the range if it was known that people were knocking off copies?
Just because you want it and it is no longer available or (in your opinion) is over priced, does not in any way change the fact that it is wrong and flat-out illegal.

The real answer is: Depends on your local laws.

For most of the world, that's illegal, but there might be exceptions (e.g. Taiwan).

E.g. local copyright laws say I'm perfectly entitled to make a copy of e.g. a book I own for my personal use, or for someone in my immediate family. However, sculptures are specifically exempted.

While I support IP rights to the fullest extent of the law, that's where it stops. The law limits BOTH parties.

I personally find it extremely distasteful that IP rights holders lie about consumers' legal rights.

Maxxon,
Could you elaborate? I too would find it distasteful, but I can't for the life of me imagine what you mean. Please, tell us more...

Its all very simple chaps.IT should not even be subject to discussion common good=good

Reccerat, what exactly IS the common good here?

As much as I am opposed to copying other people's works (it is illegal as hell) I could understand it for some OOP minis that have long since gone the way of the Dodo. I know I should be a "good doobie" and advocate EBay, Batertown, or just tell you to "Tough it out" but, to be honest folks, I don't see a huge problem with figures from dead lines.

I have the same feeling about music copying. I'm an old Jazz and blues fan. It has been well nigh impossible to find decent copies of some of the classic Jazz and Blues material in the past. So a couple of buddies of mine would tape trade. This was stuff that hadn't seen the light of day for 40 years. Thanks to the ultra low cost of CD technology a lot of this stuff is getting reproduced now. I wish the same were true for some minis.

Depends, copyright laws are not as black and white as some members here would make them out to be. For instance, something was published in the United States prior to 1923 then that item would now be in the public domain. Same with if that item was published before 1963 but the copyright was not renewed. Of course there are also circumstances where if the item was created in a country that is not part of international copyright agreements, then it wouldn't be protected. However, if someone goes down to their local hobby shop and purchases the newest dwarven keg master mini from Company X, then procedes to cast 20 copies, they deserve to be taken to court.

@saxondog-if the miniature was completely out of production you could make a case for doing a recasting depending on what the end purpose of the item would be. A google seach on the term "Fair Use doctrine" will provide a better explanation than I can at the moment.

Fair use does not apply to sculptural works. It is very specific in that regard. They are expressly exempted.

From a slightly different point of view I have had two orders that would be for folks that will almost certainly be casting figures for themselves. (Lots of command and specialist packs and only one of each rank and file??)

They both came within a month or so of each other and I did think to myself 'why am I bothering?' Probably the closest I've come to just packing Crusader in and getting a real job instead.

I am, for one, stupid enough to avoid recasting. But in my game group there are some people that aren't. Not miniatures, but those expensive resin terrain items that are sold by well known companies. I don't approved it and in my home I have only original items or manufactured by myself with cardboard and plasticard to play with my children. However when I go to my club I play with the pirated items.

It is difficult to convince anybody to avoid recasting a resin road trip, for instance, when the item is clearly overpriced. And I try, because I love this hobby enough to understand that if there are no profits nobody will be producing new lines and thus the hobby would die.

I'd go for the "technically illegal, but morally ok" angle if the stuff has been out of production that long and you've tried buying it legit.

Consider it this way; You own an antique car and you needed a spare and you'd been through all the dealers and ebay and stuff and nothing doing. What about taking the plans for the part and getting a machine shop to make you one? Technically, illegal since the design is owned by the original manufacturer. But it's done all the time because there's no other way to get hold of the parts.

So I'd say it's not completely legal, but yeah on moral grounds. And you're honour bound to stop doing it if they ever come back into production.

Selling them is right out though.

Heh - consider this for a moral maze; If I play Warhammer, but I don't use GW figures, I use Prince August cast-your-own ones - am I stealing revenue from GW by not using their figures?

A lot of parallels come to mind.

You want a book which is out of print. You can't get it through any local used book stores, online or anywhere. You manage to get a copy at your public library, and copy the book. While it may be technically a violation of the copyright, I have done this without losing a night's sleep.

A gaming variation comes with out of print rules. I have made copies of rules for friends. These rules are out of print, the company made them is out of business, no one seems to know who holds the copyright, and there is no one to contact.

The situation with certain out of print minis seems to be the same. Sometimes the person "with the rights" has nothing more than the master molds. Having the master molds is not the same thing as having the rights to manufacture figures. But quite often, it they are treated as having the same thing.

Say that I own a miniatures company. I buy the molds from another company which is going bust. As I look through the molds, I see a figure which looks suspiciously like a Foundry figure. They guy I bought the molds from tells me that I own the rights to all of the figures who are in the master mold, but gives me no paperwork to back it up. Do I cast and sell the figure which looks suspiciously like that Foundry figure?

I really don't see why someone would do this, as a practical matter. A spin caster and vulcanizing machine is a fairly expensive proposition - you are probably looking at $10,000 at a minimum. Then the blanks for molds are going to run $50.00 each, to say nothing of the cost of lead, and the time involved.

Then, there is always the possibility that the person who holds the rights might sue you. The penalties can be steep. I have not checked in an age, but I believe statutory damages are set at $50,000. And you could easily spend more in attorneys fees. Does anyone want to start selling bootlegged GW figures to find out?

Somehow, I think if you really wanted that number of figures, it would be easier to negotiate a deal with the manufacturer for a nice bulk discount.

If you heavily convert a piece, then recast it in resin or dropcast, is that still legally&Morally wrong? What if its not a whole figure just an item like a wheel, weapon or dragon wing.

Hypothetical question.
Many years ago (20 ish)I bought Mad Mullah Acklands Deaths head commandos (a citadel product) sadly now they are long out of production, and 2/3 of them have succumbed to the dreaded "lead rot". spalling out.
Would I be within my rights to make a mould and hand cast replacements for the figures that have been ruined (I am told by using metal with impurities in it)... I am only replacing something that I have already paid for but "may" have been ruined by shoddy workmanship by the caster.

Its a big company... they don't have any intention of production the figures again.... so... opinions please

"Heh - consider this for a moral maze; If I play Warhammer, but I don't use GW figures, I use Prince August cast-your-own ones - am I stealing revenue from GW by not using their figures?"

No. But if you use home-made moulds for GW figures to do the same, the answer becomes yes.

Whenever this topic rears its head, you always get the posts about "what if this happens?".

Face it, guys, no matter what hypothetical situation you can think up, the answer is still the same - you are copying someone else's work without permission.

Now, in the case of dead companies and their OOP figures, I can see some reasoning to copy these. But even though the company is dead and buried, the copyright isnt.

A wheel, a dragon's claw, a bayonet.....no matter how small, you are still involved in copyright theft.

Even if you heavily convert an existing figure, ask yourself this: do you have the right to copy the pre-converted figure??

Unless you have permission, it is always wrong.

Spend the time and money creating something of your own.

Illegal, yes. Immoral, no. Selling the copies and driving the creator out of business? That's immoral.

Casting private copies is a victimless crime. It's like singing your kid happy birthday. Illegal, but not harmful or immoral.

Big companies buying out congress and craming the DMCA down our throats is both harmful and immoral, but perfectly legal.

It's a strange world we live in. Do what you want and accept the consequences.

There are always a lot of very misinformed urban myths about, such as "if I change it a bit there is no copyright problem". This is usually people trying to rationalise a lack of honesty.

Martin at peter pig

ken - it is illegal because it is theft - if you have ever been burgled you will probably know that theft is immoral.

Crusaderminis,
Though you may well be right about recasting being the intention behind the 2 orders, I could imagine you getting a similar order from me. I play Pig Wars and want as much variety within my force as possible. Thus, if I already had a bunch of Saxons, I might just want one each of new poses as they come out. Anyway, hopefully it is not as bad as you think.

The company may be dead, but that means nothing. I asked a few years ago, here, what the status was of a certain resin item cast in Belgium more than 20 years ago. I was an item I could legitimately have a whole bunch of, but I only bought 10 at the time. I think I bought out a retailer, and then forgot about them.

Well, guess what. The company was indeed kaput, but the owner was alive and kicking. Would all you "what if?" guys want to consider this? The IP owner's one man corporation was no longer in business, but he was still alive, and thriving. So, we contacted each other, and he gave me permission to make my own copies for personal use. But, I HAD HIS PERMISSION. As it turns out, he had a few more stashed away somewhere, and some similar items are made by another company, and it seemed like too much trouble mastering skills I did not have, so I did not bother to hoist the Jolly Roger.

Moral of the story is that the item may no longer be in production, but that means nothing.

I see an awful lot of immature "I want it! You can't stop me!" whining here in trying to get around the obvious fact that copying without permission is stealing.

Every time I've seen this done (despite any argument I might make against it) the fellow calculated he can make the minis "cheaper" than buying them. With one exception they've all been fooling themselves. Two words, HOT LEAD. John Carroll has the right of it. These things seldom disappear entirely. Do a little research, you never know what you might find. The owner may have some taking up space in his garage and might let you have them for a song.

"Casting private copies is a victimless crime."

You really need to educate yourself about this issue before making any more stupid comments like this.

I've taken parts of other models, recast them in different media and used them in scratch builds. Not only does this not bother me morally it is legal and within the letter AND spirit of copyright law. In the case of sculpts if you are more than 15% different and in a different medium you are perfectly legal. Some of the lead casters here going to hem and haw over this but my suggestion is to just look up copyright law. Its not that hard to read.

"A spin caster and vulcanizing machine is a fairly expensive proposition - you are probably looking at $10,000 at a minimum."

Nope. Less than $4,000.00 for a basic setup suitable home/garage use.

link

OK, so what about a situation similar to what CorpCommander mentions above? What if a resin caster uses the tracks from a Tamiya Sherman and the storage boxes from an Italeri Crusader on the master of his otherwise scratchbuilt sci fi tank model?

Another, potentially more "heinous crime" that comes to mind is the 20+ year old scale model resin aftermarket. A caster takes a kit part or complete assembly and modifies it to correct flaws or produce an alternate variant. He then makes castings and sells the copies. I'm even aware of at least one well known resin caster who sells direct resin copies of the polyvinyl tires from some kits. The reason for this is that the kit tires degrade and melt and will destroy the styrene parts they touch as well. Aren't these still examples of piracy? Can you morally justify such things even if you wish to avoid having your prize winning BTR-70 floating in a puddle of goo that used to be it's suspension?

Let us not forget that in some circles of our hobby, even the mention of home casting is taboo. For example, if you sculpt an original torso in body armor to use on your 40K Imperial Guard army and make, say, 60 resin castings for conversions. God help you if you mention this fact on any of the "Fanboy" message boards. You would be better treated if you mentioned Satan worship to bunch of religious die hards!

I know this hurts alot of us in the industry, but frankly I'm more concerned about other things people are doing in the darkness of their basements such as having meth labs, producing child porn, beating dogs and god knows what else, maybe even bootlegging music CDs! I still feel Metallica's pain...Now theres some guys really being hurt by bootlegging. I heard James Hetfield or whatever his name was had to sell one of his 20 houses.

Corp Commander. I have a friend down the local club who could I am sure convert a commercial model. Could he convert a games Workshop vehicle(by say 25%) and get you to cast it in resin ? You would sell loads and the change need only be to the rear face, (surely more than 15% of the surface area) . Would we need to tell Games workshop or could we just put it in a box with your name and address on it? I am sure if you will take the risk, a lot of money can be made. At 15% just a head change would do it as well. Thus the whole Games workshop range could be used but cast in resin. Could you tell us which companies stuff you have copied and what sort of quantities you have produced/sold?
This would give a great factual start to further discussion.
Could you also point to a suitable web address where the 15% rule is quoted, it would cetainly nail this one.

To David McB - I would like to think you are right and I dont think badly of people who just make seemeingly strange orders at all - these were pretty black and white though.

The Seven Years War range is particularly susceptible to 'home casting' as you need so many of the fusiliers.

To CorpCommander - you are a supporting member here - which company do you run? Just interested if you ever sculpt any of your own stuff, see it copied by 16% and say 'Hey-ho, never mind'

Martin, I'd like to chime in on the factual start to further discussion. Here are some actual companies producing "recast" of commercial parts.

Replicas and Miniatures of Maryland: Produces an extensive line of 1/25 scale parts for the 1932 Ford based on parts of the Revell/Monogram kit.

Chesapeake Model Designs: Produces resin conversion kits for 1/35 scale armor models. One product is designed to backdate a Tamiya M48A3 to the earlier M48. At least 50% of the original Tamiya hull was used for the master and, I would guess, 80% of Tamiya's turret was used.

Trackz (a VLS company): The resin tires I mentioned above are recast of polyvinyl tires from, IIRC, Trumpeter kits. As mentioned, these are sold as a "safe" replacement for the original, chemically unstable kit tires.

So far, I've only mentioned sample cases from the scale modeling side of the industry. None of these are trade secrets, in fact, it's all done quite openly. There are, however, people in our corner of the hobby market adding "kitbashed" details to there master models. Is a person any less guilty of "piracy" when they detail models they intend to cast and sell with parts made by Dragon, Tamiya and Italeri?

So, the question is, where do we draw the line? I think most people here would agree that the person with a full vulcanizing and spincasting set up making copies of, say, Peter Pig or Hasslefree items to sell on E Bay, is a crook. There seems to be a general feeling here that a hobbyist using DIY casting materials to make copies of current or OOP figures and/or components for his own use is also a thief. I would personally agree strongly with the first premise and declare a hung jury on the second. But, beyond these two points where do we shape a policy? This subject comes up at least every couple of months here at TMP and I often repeat my above examples (sorry). Fortunately, TMP is one forum where this can be discussed openly. This is an important topic and I look forward to it's continued discussion.

I love all of your lame ass rationalisations for theft. Some that I particularly like are:

- it’s a victimless crime

- there are some countries that do not follow copy right law

- this or that situation….

The best by far is “I can do this because the company that made this charged too much”.

PJ

ndb9999, astronomican: I'm a professional software developer so I'm affected by IP laws more than most people. You might disagree with my position, but it's certainly not "stupid".

Most home casters do it because they enjoy the process. They weren't going to buy the figures, so the original sculptor (or manufacturer in a work for hire) wasn't going to make a sale. This is why it's victimless.

Now if the home caster sells stuff, then the original sculptor does lose a sale. In my opinion it's the loss of a sale that creates the victim, not the casting process itself.

I've already said casting copies is illegal. There's no doubt about it. But so is singing happy birthday to your kid. (Please accept my apology if you've already sent your check to ASCAP.)

"They weren't going to buy the figures, so the original sculptor (or manufacturer in a work for hire) wasn't going to make a sale. This is why it's victimless."

How is this different than the following scenario:

"They weren't going to buy the CD, so the original recording artist wasn't going to make a sale. This is why it's victimless."

RIAA has sued and settled with thousands of people for committing this victimless crime.

OK, right after I posted the message above, I had a "duh" moment. A key difference is that music file sharing is that, sharing.

PJ Parent: "lame ass rationalisations for theft"? Have you ever sung "Happy Birthday" in public? Don't you know that millions of people all over the U.S. are depriving Time Warner of the right to earn a living?

Everybody here agrees casting figures at home is illegal. Some of us just think IP law has strayed too far from its original intent. The penalty no longer fits the crime.

"Most home casters do it because they enjoy the process. They weren't going to buy the figures, so the original sculptor (or manufacturer in a work for hire) wasn't going to make a sale. This is why it's victimless."

The person who owns the right to copy the model isnt me, you, the dumb-nut in his basement, or any other Tom, Dick, or Harriette - its the copyright holder (whether they be a single person or a company). If their work is copied, they are the victim.

"In my opinion it's the loss of a sale that creates the victim, not the casting process itself."

Even though it's wrong, you can have your opinion.

"But so is singing happy birthday to your kid."

Who owns the copyright to 'Happy Birthday'??

"I love all of your lame ass rationalisations for theft."

[AOL]Me too!![/AOL]

"Who owns the copyright to 'Happy Birthday'??"

AOL Time Warner

"Even though it's wrong, you can have your opinion."

I know why it's *illegal*, but why is it wrong? Speeding is illegal too, but most people don't think badly of someone who gets a speeding ticket.