"Why Can't We Get a Classic Fantasy Dungeoncrawl Boardgame?" Topic

So I see the announcement for a DM-less cooperative fantasy dungeoncrawl boardgame, and get excited, only to find to my horror that it uses Chibi art. I hate that stuff. Why, why, why do we keep getting this approach? "Super Dungeon Explore" did it, too. It's like these manufacturers are addicted to old style Nintendo games and cheesy kids anime.
And if it's not that, it's the overblown S&M style with ridiculous outfits that look like a cross between torture devices and a Frederick's of Hollywood store window display.
And then too make matters worse, the game play is usually mimicking video game RPGs, with "power up" tokens or bizarre terminology like "super strike" or "healing surge," as if the miniatures are going to somehow produce rainbow-colored glowing light trails when you roll their attack dice.

Stop it, stop it, stop it.

Just make a dungeon game, please. Just give it heroic heroes and classic monsters. Call a sword a sword and a bow a bow. Call a wizard a wizard, a thief a thief, and an elf an elf. Use potions, magic items and magic spells. Leave the video game crap for the consoles and the anime garbage for the cable TV. In other words, play it straight. We'll imagine the rest on our own, if we want to.

Sounds like Song Of Gold And Darkness is the game for you.

I thought Descent 2 was well done. Granted I've only played the first few scenarios but I enjoyed those. I guess it's not DM-less.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has been left wanting. I've been looking for a good solo and/or cooperative dungeon crawler for awhile. Preferably one that has rules for character advancement.

Unfortunately, all the ones that meet that criteria, are out of print. Dungeonbash ( a PnP game ) and Cavern Crawl ( link ) aren't too bad, but I wanted a bit more than what they offer.

Warrior Heroes: Legends is a good game, but I'm not fond of the dungeon rules. Song of Gold and Darkness is a decent game also, but it doesn't have the character advancement that I'm looking for.

Currently I am in the process of kitbashing my own version of Warhammer Quest.

So when you say Dungeon crawl game are you looking for the:

1 – "build your own dungeon".

2 – A laid out dungeon.

3 – Or tiles that can be shuffled, laid face down and then flipped to expose the layout.

The original Dungeon! from TSR is still around: link

Or one of the three AD&D boardgames like Dungeons & Dragons: Castle Ravenloft Board Game: link

Admittedly character advancement is limited in the latter series, but they are co-op dungeon crawls.

So when you say Dungeon crawl game are you looking for the:

1 – "build your own dungeon".

2 – A laid out dungeon.

3 – Or tiles that can be shuffle, laid face down and then flipped to expose the layout.

1 or 3. but 2 is acceptable.

Let's call put the following objectives in place:

1.) Cooperative. Players work as a party to achieve a common goal. There is no competitive element. (This knocks out Dungeon!, Descent, Warhammer Quest/Heroquest/D&D, and most others that I know of.)

2.) No DM/GM/Referee. Nobody has to "plan the adventure" or have secret information or "run the monsters." The system handles that. This knocks out Descent, WHQ, HQ, D&D, etc.

3.) Tactical combat required. Heroes and monsters must maneuver for LOS or melee— you don't just "see the monster and roll dice." (Knocks out Dungeon!) This also means the monsters will need to have a tactical "priority target" or "priority action" system of some sort to determine where and how they move and whom they attack. (The D&D Boardgame does achieve this, but it's also possibly too straightforward and one-note, and the monster capabilities are a tad bland.)

4.) Capability for a decent "story line" or scenario aspect, with thematic monsters, events and treasure, D&D BG almost gets there, but the monsters and events are still too random, and too darn bloody, too. You're more likely to die than win D&D BG.

5.) Character advancement. Some way to improve, and continue to improve, with scenarios that can adapt to the improvement. Again, D&D BG has a very limited form of this— the heroes can "level up," but only once, and the level doesn't sustain between scenarios.

6.) A broad selection of classic hero types, allowing for a varied party design. Hit the standard tropes— Fighter, Wizard, Cleric, Thief, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, and maybe a few specialties like Paladin, Barbarian, etc.

7.) Spells that operate like spells, not just fancy attacks.

8.) Weapons and armor that act like weapons and armor. And just call them what they are. Also, some differentiation and tactical differences would be nice, with advantages and disadvantages beyond just which one does more damage (or, in the case of armor, absorbs/prevents more damage). Give me a reason to choose between a battle axe and a long sword that makes both a viable choice.

9.) No video game crap. No "power ups" or "ground slams" or whatever. Just straight classic dungeon crawl.

10. Classic fantasy art and figures. Think Tom Meir or Sandra Garrity. Good old basic armor, boots, tunics, swords, etc. No spikes, no skulls, no demon-headed heroes. And a dwarf is a dwarf, not a huge hulk (I'm looking at you, D&D BG:WoA with your dwarf-woman-on-steroids figure. That's a member of the East German Women's Field Hockey Team, not a dwarf.)

11. A nice dungeon crawl— enter a chamber, find the monster, defeat the monster, get the treasure, move on. Not a gauntlet run with "spawning monsters" like D&D BG and Descent. If I wanted to play Gauntlet, I'd fire up a game console. (Okay, a Gauntlet scenario or two is fine— but not always, every game.) Honestly, it's okay if the heroes have a better than even chance of winning. The point of a dungeon crawl is adventure, not survival.

12. Simple, easy to play yet versatile rules and components. Descent has too many components. D&D BG is also a bit heavy on components, yet is too simplistic in combat rules to be versatile (not to mention too deadly towards heroes). The record keeping should be minimal and clean.

13. Really good art. D&D BG flunks on this one— the tiles are bland and boring, and the card art is barely there at all. The original Descent was slightly better, but suffered from grotesque near-demonic stuff— for the game's heroes! Give me dungeon tiles with some nice, imaginative stone flooring with decorative elements to distinguish the chambers, full color monster art, pictures of my weapons and treasure, and honor the classic traditions.

14. Family friendly. I want a game I can entice anybody to play (within reason). So no grotesque monsters, no evil party members, no chain mail bikini art, and no characters that look like the fell out of punk bar in Soho. Lighthearted humor is fine, but keep the double-entendre stuff out of it. I want The Hobbit, not Game of Thrones.

15. Fairly quick playing time. Say about an hour or so? With ability to make it less.

16. Plus lots of scenarios and high replay ability.

17. Good solo play ability, with a full party of heroes. Think Baldur's Gate on my tabletop.

That's my list so far. Add to it, folks!

18) It should be simple enough that the basic rules can be taught to a group of mildly inebriated convention attendees in less than 10 minutes.

I'd prefer a set of miniature wargaming dungeoncrawl rules, but a well done boardgame would be welcome.

and fix climate change, the common cold, promote world peace, cost less that £10.00 GBP and be ready by next Friday.

But seriously, I think those requirements are a tall order. I'd say you actually want to play a game of D&D or maybe Savage Worlds Fantasy, but the "no DM" rule precludes that. I don't see how one, simple, quick system would be able to do all of that. And what makes a spell "like a spell, not just a fancy attack"?

1.) Cooperative. Players work as a party to achieve a common goal. There is no competitive element. (This knocks out Dungeon!, Descent, Warhammer Quest/Heroquest/D&D, and most others that I know of.)

Um, Heroquest and Warhammer Quest were cooperative. Players didn't compete with one another.

2.) No DM/GM/Referee. Nobody has to "plan the adventure" or have secret information or "run the monsters." The system handles that. This knocks out Descent, WHQ, HQ, D&D, etc.

Again, Warhammer Quest did not require a GM.

I would argue that Warhammer Quest meets most of your criteria. You really should try and track a copy down or at least read the rules. They're available online in a few places. That's why I decided to build my own copy.

Just play AD&D with the random dungeon tables in the back of the book, and take turns running the monsters.

So what game that exists now or has existed meets your criteria?

As soon as this ships to retail you're all set:

link

I'm in agreement with Parzival. Myth Isn't what I am looking for. A boardgame with/or with out minis that meet his wishlist would be great. Hero quest/warhammer quest are probably the closest.

Sounds like there's a void in the market all set to be exploited.

It's not a "board" game but rather a print n play PDF. But you could check out Dark Dungeon on RPGnow.(I would link but am on my tablet and not sure how).
It uses themed (but still random) encounter charts.
It has character advancement.
It has random dungeon layout. I have had this on rare occasion lead to dungeons that end before the mission was resolved. But anytime you give 100% control to dice things like that can happen.
It has both premade characters with the premade adventures or a packet that allows homemade characters.
The artwork will not likely meet your level of want, but the playing pieces can easily be replaced with minis.
Honestly it has been awhile since my last bout of gaming with them. I know it included paged of extra counters and such to track stuff during games. But I believe I tracked most of it with a pad and pencil.
You can get the bundle deal for $12.50 USD but expect to print out quite a bit of stuff to play (dungeonn tiles, character sheets, monster sheets, optional tokens, etc).

Does all the combat have to be literally inside the dungeon? Say a 4"x 4" tile. Do all the figures/counters have to fit inside or is it okay to move them off to a 12 x 12 battle board or similar?

Desire #3 is a challenge if it all needs to fit inside a tile.

If there were something that fit your criteria I would buy it in a minute.

I want to buy Parzival's game too.

I agree Warhammer Quest is probably the closest. If you want to try Warhammef Quest cheaply and easily, there is a very good iPad/iPhone app that is pretty much a direct port.

I love Warhammer quest :)

RebelMike
RebelMinis.com

About "cooperative." By this I mean that nobody acts in opposition to the other players. So no "overlord" type person who "wins" the game by defeating the party. To me, that's anathema to the spirit of the dungeon crawl.

I know Hero Quest required a GM. I wasn't aware that WHQ did not, so yes, it would be close.

As to the battle board question, no, that's not what I want. But really, even a 4 x 4 grid has tactical potential, especially if melee requires adjacency. In a dungeon, range isn't much of an issue because LOS is likely to be broken before range factors really come into play, except for thrown stuff. Like I said, D&D BG and Descent both manage tactical play within their tile structure, but both have other limitations that knock them out of contention.

As for "just playing D&D using the random tables," that's just too cumbersome and too rules heavy, with too much upkeep and prep work. The "rules in 10 minutes" approach is exactly what is needed. That ain't D&D.

Really, I don't want to build my own. I could. Heck, a while back I started on a little rules set myself, got as far as a simple combat, magic, and holy magic system, even a list of monsters with behavior traits, and just ran into the fact that generating the tiles, cards, etc. was an immense task. I keep dabbling at it, but I've got other things on my plate that require my attention, so it's very, very back burner.

Part of the issue with BYO or PrintYO is cost, of course. I don't want to think what the cost of printing out sufficient full color tiles, cards, components, etc. would be for a $30 USD-a-cartridge inkjet printer.

A thirty dollar cartridge inkjet printer is about the same cost as a board game if not cheaper. Its time that is different.

An OOP game, Dragon Strike by TSR, meets 14 of your 17 criteria. The ones it doesn't meet (2, 5, & 17) unfortunately make it a showstopper based on your comments, but its entry in boardgamegeek.com has a few tweaks in the forum section that takes care of criterion 5. IMO the hardest criterion to meet is #2 as it calls for a good AI to act as the GM. Good luck on finding something that foots the bill and let us know when you do as I'd probably buy it to play with my grandsons.

"Knock.Knock" opens door ,places box on table .
" WarhammerQuest " walks away.

Parzival-- Warhammer Quest was everything you are asking for. Dice rolls and scenario events would trigger monsters, traps, and what-not and it was totally cooperative. And now you've made me want to drag out my copy and play it after all these years, you wag! 8)=

"Knock.Knock" opens door ,places box on table .
" WarhammerQuest " walks away.

Not seeing that box on my table, there, Feet Up Now.

Warhammer Quest was everything you are asking for.

And that "was" is the whole problem, isn't it? WHQ may have been that product, but it isn't available now. Looking on BGG, it lists on the marketplace for almost $400 USD used!

Now, I'm not gonna whine about that. Hey, it's worth what it's worth, and if people can afford to pay e-bay prices for used copies, be my guest. But let's face it, that's not "currently available" by any realistic standard. And, unfortunately, we all know that there is no way GW is going to reproduce this product today at any price. They've cut their non-core game line completely. It's WFB, 40K, LotR/Hobbit (for the time being), and forget the rest. I'd love for them to license it to Fantasy Flight or someone, but I'm confident that's not going to happen as FFG in no way wants to compete with their own Descent non-cooperative system.

I wish that wasn't true. I'd probably buy WHQ on the spot and be very satisfied, if it were available. But it's not.

*Sigh*

I have been keeping an eye on this one , a good review too
YouTube link

I'll second Dark Dungeon--great game, horrible graphics, but you can buy higher quality dungeon tiles (my favorites are from Skeleton Key) and use your own minis.

Doesn't Ravenloft, Wrath of Ashardalon do this, though?
By that I mean the #2 thing about the system running things.
It's been awhile but seem to recall somebody who wasn't the active player had to move the monsters/roll for them---but only for that turn.

That is, nobody is the dedicated monsterkeeper and they're only following whatever thing the cards tell them to do---moving monsters, rolling dice for attack. They don't really strategize about it. Card says attack nearest PC so they attack.

I've got the D&D Wrath of Ashardalon game, and I find it disappointing. It does self-run, but it feels more like a gauntlet designed to kill the PCs than an enjoyable adventure. On top of that, the artwork is mediocre, the combat system rather boring, and the flavor is more like a bad video game than a fantasy world. The figs are great, but It's just not a good game.

Myth looks like it has potential but the art is very cartoonish.

Watched about half the Myth vid. I liked a few ideas, but again this seems overly complex, in part to force the game to follow an "original" setting and milieu rather than good old generic classic fantasy. And it has that "video game" terminology for things that are frankly just the swing of a long sword. I also don't like the card aspect for determining what attack is done. D&D BG does this, and it's lame and clumsy, IMHO, not to mention adding complexity that doesn't need to be there. An attack should be no different than saying "Kaldor swings his sword at the orc," just as you do in a typical RPG. Roll to hit and/or damage, repeat as necessary. No cards needed.

Parzival,
I agree with you on all points. Which is why I'm designing my own DM-less co-operative dungeoncrawl game, halfway between classic d&d and a boardgame like Dungeon.

So far play-testing is going well, with an average game taking about an hour, with 1 1/2 to 2 hours for longer quests.

What I've discovered so far seems counter-inuitive to most boardgamers: simple tables, a rule-book with monsters, spells and treasure and recording character advancement with good old pencil and paper, works much better and far faster than when I introduced these same elements as cards, tokens, etc.
Pencil & paper made it much easier for players to see what powers, treasure and spells, etc they have, than an endless proliferation of tokens, stacks of cards, etc, that litter the play-surface.

So I'm streamlining the whole game back down to a paper & pencil, booklet & tables approach, with minimal card use.

I will be doing all the art myself, in classic 70's D&D style.

It's going to be open for players to modify as they please, come in supplements with different locations & missions, and a set of card characters and monsters, though I encourage players to use whatever miniatures they want and to make rules for them as desired – hopefully a tech-savvy freind will get a site& forum set up so players casn post their own monsters, classes, spells etc.

Does this sound like the kind of game people want to play, and should I continue to develop this, with an eye to an eventual crowdfunding cmapaign and then general release?

Simple. Make that game.

There is no shortage of wonderful content/charts/tables/game mechanics etc. available. There is no shortage of excellent modular dungeons available (buy some boxes of the WOTC tiles, and number them or something).

Take what rules you want…modify them and go nuts. It's what I'm doing. I am a huge WHQ fan but I dislike the GW-mechanics for fighting, and obviously I'm not going to invest money in buying a copy nowdays.

So I'm making my own. If you're a seasoned gamer just start compiling rules, playtest them a bit, type em up and go nuts.

I end up making a lot of rules myself to fit my own needs (heck I ended up selling the last one I made). Give it a whirl. It can be damn fun, and also adds a lot of pride when you host a successful game at your next convention.

Now some might want to cut my legs off, but i thought Mage Knight Dungeons was an interesting approach to Dungeon Crawl Games. All players have the option to control PC's and monsters.
Id love to try out warhammer quest, but with the current price i never will!

You could try fantasy-customising Guncrawl, but you're on your own for magic and I'm unsure about character advancement.