Wyatt the Odd | 28 Feb 2014 9:39 a.m. PST |
The Coldstream Guards had a handful of M3 White Scout Cars in NW Europe (names like Eaglet and Owl, I think). I don't believe that these were used as recon vehicles, and I know the British tended to chuck the American MGs that came with many Lend-Leased vehicles. That makes me think that these would've been unarmed, but I'm more than willing to be corrected. Anyone? Wyatt |
Bertie | 28 Feb 2014 10:31 a.m. PST |
Pip Roberts used a White as his command car in 11th Armoured Division, and 3rd RTR used them in their medical section in the Western Desert
both, presumably, unarmed.
Cheers, Bertie |
donlowry | 28 Feb 2014 10:43 a.m. PST |
Why take a MG to war when you can go unarmed? |
Griefbringer | 28 Feb 2014 11:34 a.m. PST |
No MGs please, we are British! Then again, if you are using that car as a command vehicle in the rear, then removing MGs might provide a bit more room to fit in radios, map tables, tea kettles, staff officers etc. And in late war there was not that much danger of air attacks – or at least not of German ones. |
15mm and 28mm Fanatik | 28 Feb 2014 12:08 p.m. PST |
Replace the American .30-cals with British Brens are voila. |
Lion in the Stars | 28 Feb 2014 12:34 p.m. PST |
Then again, if you are using that car as a command vehicle in the rear, then removing MGs might provide a bit more room to fit in radios, map tables, tea kettles, staff officers etc. Less the MGs than the MG ammo, .50cal boxes are BIG and don't hold a whole lot of rounds
And in late war there was not that much danger of air attacks – or at least not of German ones. That too. |
Jemima Fawr | 28 Feb 2014 4:08 p.m. PST |
British M3A1 Scout Cars were mainly used as Tac HQ vehicles, artillery OPs and as TACPs, though some Armoured Car Regiments also used them to carry their Assault/Support Troops. I've seen photos of British M3A1s with Browning .30s, but never with Brens or .50s. |
Griefbringer | 01 Mar 2014 3:42 a.m. PST |
Less the MGs than the MG ammo, .50cal boxes are BIG and don't hold a whole lot of rounds
Certainly true, and .30 cal ammo boxes can also take quite some space, which could be spent for storing more essential items such as spare batteries, tea leaves or biscuit tins. If I am not mistaken, some of the MGs could be mounted on rails on the sides, which would have limited the space taken by them. Though I guess they could still get on the way occasionally, and the space required to actually man the MG would restrict layout. I think one of the TOEs on Gary Kennedy's website indicates that they could have also been used as command vehicles in infantry companies otherwise motorised with halftracks and carriers. |
captain canada | 01 Mar 2014 4:59 a.m. PST |
Its doctrine again. If aircraft attack the US doctrine said to fire from every vehicle. British doctrine was to seek shelter. It makes sense when you see how often the US bomb allied troops. |
Gaz0045 | 01 Mar 2014 5:18 a.m. PST |
I've seen the Browning .30 mounted on various UK vehicles, it was fitted to Sherman's in Brit service too
..I don't recall a .50 tho' other than on SAS jeeps etc
Not to say that they weren't scavenged and fitted there's always that exception
Brens were prioritised for infantry units, the armour units had .30 for their Brownings and 7.92 for Besas- entering the zone of ammo snafus! Doctrine too-in tanks, usually the turret mounted AA mg was removed, the TC was there to command the tank not engage in rattling off at the enemy
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Wyatt the Odd | 01 Mar 2014 9:27 a.m. PST |
Thanks. That's pretty much what I thought. Bouchery's "British Soldier" lists these as being Armoured Command Cars as part of the Regimental HQ, so I'll probably leave the .30s off of most of them. FWIW, there is a picture of a Bren Carrier mounting an M2 .50. Wyatt |
Griefbringer | 01 Mar 2014 11:12 a.m. PST |
If you are going to model them as regimental HQs, don't forget to include necessary amount of radios, map tables, staff officers, tea kettles and biscuit tins. Not to mention regimental sergeant major with appropriately impressive moustache. |
Jemima Fawr | 01 Mar 2014 6:13 p.m. PST |
There were still plenty of British Shermans (though never Fireflies) and halftracks mounting .50s, as well as Carriers, as mentioned above. |
Hornswoggler | 01 Mar 2014 7:02 p.m. PST |
There were still plenty of British Shermans
and halftracks mounting .50s
@RMD, I seldom doubt any information that you provide but can you please give some insight into the basis for this comment. I just don't remember seeing very many photos that would seem to support this
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Jemima Fawr | 02 Mar 2014 4:48 a.m. PST |
I'm not remotely saying that .50s were mounted on the majority, but they certainly remained on a significant minority, along with .30s. There's plenty of photographic evidence for this, but it often goes overlooked. There are also accounts of the .50s on halftracks and Carriers being used to provide defensive fire support. For example, the Carrier Platoons of 7th Armoured Division made great use of .50 Cals on their Carriers – they were fitted to roughly 1 or 2 Carriers per Section (of 3 Carriers) of 1 RB and the Queen's Brigade. 4th Field Squadron RE, also of 7th Armoured Division, detailed in an after-action report (Wetteren, September 1944) how the Squadron's halftracks were positioned, so that their .50s covered likely enemy approaches. You do read time and time again in veterans' accounts re how the .50s were all removed, though they're not infallible. For example, I interviewed a veteran of 22nd Dragoons (Sherman Crab Flails) some years ago who told me that they *always* removed all external stowage and .50s, as they'd be damaged by exploding mines. I'm absolutely sure that this was generally true of his unit, but almost immediately I then found a photo of a clearly-marked 22nd Dragoons Crab flailing a road in Normandy
with external stowage and .50 Cal
:)
link
My personal favourite:
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Gaz0045 | 02 Mar 2014 12:05 p.m. PST |
Oooooh I can add a green Hanomag to my Brit tank force and use a .50! The fast turnover of leaders could mean changes to sop's that could vary from squadron to squadron and regt
.may explain the photo 'exceptions'
.and records don't always reflect reality nor memories
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Hornswoggler | 02 Mar 2014 6:38 p.m. PST |
Thanks – some nice examples there ! |
Jemima Fawr | 02 Mar 2014 7:04 p.m. PST |
That's just from 5 minutes googling. There are plenty more on the bookshelf. Re the Sdkfz 251 – it was used as an OP vehicle by 153 Field Regt (Leicestershire Yeomanry) RA of the Guards Armoured Division and replaced one of the OP halftracks they lost at Maisoncelles on 3 Aug 44, when the regiment was almost overrun by elements of 9th SS. Note the '76' AoS sign (which would be on a red-over-blue square), with the battery marking just above it, signifying 'F' Tp, 'R' Bty. The div sign is visible to the right of the door. |
Jemima Fawr | 08 Mar 2014 8:34 a.m. PST |
Just to add: 55th Field Regiment RA, which was the towed 25pdr regt in Guards Armoured Div, employed a StuG III as an OP tank. |