"Camouflage Tank Schemes Obsolete?" Topic

Don't get me wrong I think, many of the tank pictures posted here are great with their fantastic paint schemes and all, but my question is in the future, wouldn't such schemes just become obsolete because of equipment that would be able to detect them and their location. If you look at the Hammer's slammers they are described as being silver, so could that also be, that tanks in the future be fairly much any color?

any thoughts

A lot of troops and civilians will always only have access to eyeballs.

Unless someone does an app…

I agree.

That's why I paint all my future war vehicle hot pink or sky blue. I like the colors and they stand out on the table.

Then again, as said above, there are always people who don't have access to optics. Somalia comes to mind, but they really didn't have anything that could take out heavy armor.

Tricky question and an age old debate among Battletech players due to mechs being so big some gamers will argue what is the point in camouflaging a mech when they can normally be seen and detected way before they enter the theater of battle, others will argue because of this they might as well just be painted in their bright house color schemes to let the enemies know of their pending arrival. Its a case of horses for courses here and i am not going to be the one to say…

Camo will always have its place in the field. Technology is not infallible.

Camouflage always helps, even if just a little. Think of airplanes.. they are detected mainly through radar, yet they still are painted in low visibility schemes, to help then in close combat

The commander of this unit seems to think so:

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How would you paint an invisible tank?

link wn.com/invisible_tank!! link link

No need, just say, "Trust me, it's there, but you can't see it".

Fielding a company of "invisible" grav tanks is very economical too.

Actually it does make for interesting possibilities in detection rules – if a vehicle uses stealth techniques, then opponents would need detection equipment, which may be jammable, which could… people who like complicated rule sets would have a field day. Add in the option for misdirection… is it a truck, a tank, an APC, or just a shimmering heat haze…

I just claim that mine have adaptive camouflage.. so that's not necessarily the colour the enemy sees.

I would really love to find sheets that mimicked the old style 'tilt cards' where you tilted the card to see a different picture. Maybe just some mirror tiles ;-)

Modern tanks already incorporate layers of infra-red paint in their camo schemes to disrupt image enhancing tech. Camouflage is still better than no camouflage. The fact you spot something doesn't mean you know what it is … And that's the essence of camouflage, "invisibility" is merely the next step.

"Invisible tanks" – just use a number of empty bases per vehicle, with the real one being deployed when it is a certain distance from the enemy (may be invisible, but has engine noise) or when it fires. Remove all associated dummys at same time. Then, when it moves off / stops firing it's invisible again – restart the decoys from the last seen position.

Number of decoys depends on tech level of opponent.

Camouflage may not always be as helpful as bright colours. If you are dealing with units that know they are outmatched by the enemy then advertising you are coming may be of more benefit.

It really depends on the technological difference. A friend of mine who was a tanker in the army said they fired up their tanks and all turned on their lights at the same time to provide an audio and visual scare to the enemy. This was in the early 90s.

So if that tank is more or less impervious to enemy fire then knowing it is coming means you might have the enemy on the run before shooting at them.

There are obviously pluses and minuses to that as well though.

"I just claim that mine have adaptive camouflage.. so that's not necessarily the colour the enemy sees."
I agree with Khurasau. That and ECM. Much can be accomplished using future tech from camouflaging colors for stealth to announcing your forces' arrival and the impending doom it brings…

Camouflage is military looking and "cool", even if it is not much use (look at some current uniforms).

As most said, camo'd vehicles and uniforms will probably always be useful. Of course the colors will be based on the environment as always … Plus tech levels will play it's part … again as always … Of course I'm a big Hammer's Slammers fan and have a 6mm TF of them. But again, it would come down to tech level. And I'd imagine it will be a long time before we can make AFVs with complete iridium hulls … or come up with anything that will make AFVs "bullet proof", so to speak … Oddball … the real Oddball would be "horrified" to see your pastel colored models ! " Oddball: These engines are the fastest in any tanks in the European Theater of Operations, forwards or backwards. You see, man, we like to feel we can get out of trouble, quicker than we got into it.
Kelly: [looking skeptical] Got any other secret weapons?
Oddball: Well, yeah, man, you see, like, all the tanks we come up against are bigger and better than ours, so all we can hope to do is, like, scare 'em away, y'know. This gun is an ordinary 76mm but we add this piece of pipe onto it, and the Krauts think, like, maybe it's a 90mm. We got our own ammunition, it's filled with paint. When we fire it, it makes pretty pictures, scares the hell outta people! And we have a loudspeaker, when we go into battle we play music, very loud. It kind of… calms us down. " … Oh, and my Slammer TF LEGION –

All my other models are in camo/tac colors though …

I kinda figure everything'll balance itself out: optics technology will get better and cheaper but stealth and ECM will continue to develop to counter it so that the future battlefield will operate under a haze of ECM making detection and stealth chancy. Which means you might as well do a camo scheme anyway because every little bit helps, right?

Cost vs result. Paint is cheap. If a cheap Camo painting job saves 1 vehicle out a group, it was worth it. If the paint job is cheap enough, I can see it being done on just the off chance it might help.

From over a decade in my youth as a Grunt … every little bit does help ! In modern combat, you spend most of your time hiding and trying not to be target. Getting hit by the pletora of things flying thru the air. Some with your name on them ! The old saying was, if you can be seen, you can be hit, if you can be hit you can be killed … If camo only increases my survivability by 1%, I'll take it … add good field craft and tactics, we may just live to fight another day. Plus kill lots of the enemy while doing so … Oh BTW, I hate the orange grav tank someone painted … that would only work if you landed on a planet covered with orange groves and county fairs/circuses !

They make refractive paint that changes color, depending on the viewing angle. That might be a fun way to represent some kind of smart camouflage.

think you're missing the big picture. tanks will become obsolete a long time before camo does…..we play sci fi tanks because they are fun not because they are realistic…..

I have painted over 400 hundred invisible tanks, here is a photo of my latest ones. Now to work on the infantry.

I have had opponents lose track of my camo painted troops tanks and mechs on the table top. In every size from 6 to 28mm. Well done camo works.

I paint my sci-fi tanks either in a camo scheme or in some solid drab color. My rationale is that such colors have become associated with the military in the way bright red has for fire engines and yellow for construction vehicles.

Vehicles with advanced tech would possibly use something akin to the 'thermo-optical' camouflage from Ghost in the Shell.

Yup the Eyeball MK I is still the most common battlefield sensor.

As long as the primary sensor on the groundside battlefield is optical, there's likely to be camouflage. There's also likely to be some kind of IFF panels, too.

However, there was an interesting point coming out of WW2: moving vehicles are better served by a single, solid color; while stationary objects like AT guns and infantry are better served with multicolor camo.

If we're getting to the point of 'sufficiently advanced technology', though, I expect something comparable to Thermo-optic camo (Predator or Ghost in the Shell). Reminds me, I need to see if I can get one of those glass-particle ponchos/overalls the Japanese have demonstrated for a Ghost in the Shell cosplay…

Heinz … I think it will be some time before AFVs of some type will no longer be useful …

I guess it depends on their role.

My 6mm vehicles are used in a peace keeper role and being seen can be a visual deterrent.
Being seen also lets the good guys know help is on the way.

If they were hard to see then the bad guys won't be scared off and the good guys won't be reassured.

Even if you decide that visual camouflage is obsolete for whatever reason in your setting, you could still assume that some units maintain old camp patterns out of tradition.

and as a state camo works on the game table if its done right.

My 6mm vehicles are used in a peace keeper role and being seen can be a visual deterrent.
Being seen also lets the good guys know help is on the way.

If they were hard to see then the bad guys won't be scared off and the good guys won't be reassured.

That's a very good point. Police vehicles (or military vehicles generally being used in a peacekeeping setting) should be brightly/obviously colored. Say, the IFOR/KFOR vehicles in a near-white, or the UN Blue helmets (blue turbans if someone in the Fairy Godmother department likes you and sent you some Sikhs).

As for dealing with sufficiently advanced camo on the table, I like how Infinity does it. A model in camo is a marker that basically can't be shot at unless you have a flamethrower (or equivalent), or "accidentally" catch the marker in an AOE template. It even gets to strike first out of camo if it shoots at you. But doing ANYTHING that makes the model roll dice (shooting, jumping, climbing, taking a hit and rolling the armor save) reveals the model and now it doesn't get the free first strike. The model still gets a to-hit modifier because of the camo, but that's a much weaker effect than first strike. (Infinity has face-to-face rolls, where either one side or the other succeeds or neither do, so you can shoot back if you like your chances)

Stargrunt only allows Snipers to be markers on the table, and there are 3 of them: 2 dummies and the actual location. If the sniper whiffs the troop quality on his attack roll, he is revealed. If the sniper moves (changes from which location he's shooting), he needs to make a Troop Quality roll, and if he flubs it he is revealed.

As I said, AFVs of some sort will be around for some time … and to add, in some role or another … Troop transport, armor support, SP Guns of all types will be useful for a long time. Even in the Star Trek Universe, as an orbiting starship can fire with pin-point accuracy on ground targets. Every planet won't have an enemy star ship in orbit. It will be likened to WWII in the PTO … only more deadly. Aircraft didn't end the use of AFVs … only changed the tactics and fieldcraft paradigms. Many times in modern warfare generally you must have air superiority or at least parity to operate effectively. Against a force of similar tech levels. In the starship paradign, you'd have to have "orbital" surperiortiy as well … Again like we saw in the WWII PTO, with warships, aircraft, etc. …

Considerring the advancements in Military Technologies are not limited to a single path it is very possible that a decent EW package combined with a vehicles camoe would remain Tacticly viable into Future conflicts. Rember on the battle field things are Rarely Optimal & any edge can turn the tide of a closely contested conflict (equiptment malfuntions are possible).

In the future the most important thing will be to avoid at all cost blue-on-blue/friendly fire, fire with overkilling firepower. For me it is totally acceptable to have wildly different non-camo colour codes on vehicles to help avoid FF. FF is triply bad, as 1) it destroy, hurt and kills your units 2) it lower morale of shooting units c) it is connected with logistics and financial costs of expenditure of ammo.

It is and it will be more probable to meet own units on the battlefield then enemy's. Everything which helps IFF is good.

Yes, the UK, in WWII painted red and white strips in certain locations on their AFVs in North Africa just to prevent FF … And we all have seen "Invasion Stripes" on WWII allied aircraft. And today there are a number of things on AFVs to prevent that on AFVs as well … Like IR plastic bars and such …

Well I'm glad that I was able to trigger so much input on this, I had always planned to paint my armor in a camouflage scheme, but before doing so, I just wanted to get a feel how other thought the future would hold,

Myself I believe that armor will always be painted to it's local environment, only as a means to protect it's self against that one soldier that's out there somewhere with an anti-armor rocket launcher