"Battlefront Vietnam Troops for Cold War Europe?" Topic

Just curious to see what people think of the BF Americans for USAREUR forces in Europe?

Obviously, the time period and kit works for 1960s and early 1970s stuff, but I'd like to know a bit more about the infantry, e.g.:

1. how are the sculpts/poses;
2. I read in another posting that there were breakage and casting flash issues for some of the Vietnam troops, so wondered if that still applies (are they plastic figures?);
3. and, can you buy what you need, separately, e.g. by platoon, etc. for various forces?

Sadly, the selection of US, and other Cold War nations' troops for Western Europe, from the 1960s – mid-1980s is very limited in 15mm scale (far less than what can be found for WWII).

There are small packets of figs from various companies, but no real good sculpts, and/or comprehensive ranges to speak of, as far as I'm concerned, from any of the major players, which is discouraging.

Hopefully, a company or two will eventually help to change that, in the near future, since the "Cold War goes Hot" wave seems to be building.

Oops, sorry, mouse must have slipped when clicking.

Meant to cross-post this to the Modern Product Review Board, instead.

Hopefully, one of the editors can delete the errant Medieval Board posting.

I don't know how the figs apply gear wise, but the US sculpts are nice, lots of variety. Better than a lot of their recent WW@ stuff, some of which is dog-awful. Sold in platoon packs like Flames of War.

Since there was no real shooting it is a period less likely to attract gamers, and hence figures.

QRF I'm sure you know do a bunch of infantry.

If Vietnam works, Flashpoint are also very very good and completely compatible with the BF stuff (same sculptor).

I stock all three ranges…

ScaleCreep.com

Don't know about the quality of the figures themselves, but not sure if Vietnam figures would be suitable? My impression (and it is only an impression) is that the uniform was more… well… 'uniform' in Europe, whereas regulations drifted a little in the Far East.

Sadly, the selection of US, and other Cold War nations' troops for Western Europe, from the 1960s – mid-1980s is very limited in 15mm scale (far less than what can be found for WWII).

We have Germans, I'm working on British, and hoping to work on some other nations this year (Russian, US, possibly East German, maybe French and/or something like Dutch or Belgians). Armies Army is working on the frozen north with Russians, Swedish, Norwegians and Finns, although I believe we are both looking at more like mid 1980s as a benchmark, rather than 1960-1970

Thanks for the suggestions, and updates, Mark and Geoff.

I really appreciate it.

Any possible target date for availability of the British, with SLRs, Geoff?

Would love to see some more of the others you mention as well, e.g. all of them, but especially East Germans, US, and Russians.

Mid-1980s would be good too, though I'd love to see some for the 1960s and 1970s as well.

With some of the rules coming out, and/or out already, I suspect there should be more interest in them, especially for skirmish style games of platoon level and below.

Personally, I want to do that, and company+ actions as well.

I suspect for the 1950s, I can probably get away with just using WWII, or Korean War figs, in many cases.

The problem with using Vietnam era US figures is that the uniform was a different design to the standard temperate one worn in Europe from 1958-1980. The tropical uniform was baggier, had thigh pockets and sloping down ones on the jacket, which was worn loose, not tucked in like the temperate shirt which came with a heavier M65 jacket for wear in colder temperatures. The tropical uniform was based on the WW2 US paratrooper uniform. Now at 15mm you're not going to get the slanted pockets but the jacket worn over the trousers, not tucked in like the service shirt, is going to show as would the thigh pockets.

The tropical uniform at 15mm scale would suit the BDU woodland pattern uniform of the 1980s and 90s (a uniform I really liked and lament its passing) better. If you don't mind all those rolled up sleeves.

The standard issue jungle fatigues used in Vietnam, were never issued in Europe AFAIK …

The standard issue jungle fatigues used in Vietnam, were never issued in Europe AFAIK …

Officially anyway. I think ultimately they changed the regs on that as well. In the 8th ID we were allowed to wear them. I had several sets and wore them in the summer. Also very comfortable in the NC heat at Ft. Bragg!

I did not know that. I know we were issued them in the 101 when we deployed to Panama, '80,'81 & '83. We could not wear them in the 2ID in the ROK,'84-'85. With issue of the BDUs in the early to mid-80s. Since there were some problems with the initial issue, in the 101 we could wear the old camo jungle fatigues as well for awhile. When I returned from the ROK to Benning and assigned to the 197th Mech. In a really uncharacteristic move, you could where BDUs, Camo or OD Jungles, for a few years anyway … Kind'a thought it was cool. We could wear jungle boots as well … I wore the old OD Jungles a lot … after 3 deployments to Panama when I was with the 101 … They were very comfortable …

Thanks for the info on the different uniform styles.

Though, at 15mm scale, and depending upon the manufacturer, I'm not sure that will be noticeable.

The Flashpoint figs (US Marines) with M14s look pretty good to me, for 1960s era Europe, perhaps. I didn't notice any pockets on the figs, in their pics, and the weapons for the platoons look good.

They also offer figs with M16s (US Army and Marines), which should work for the 1970s.

Not sure I could tell the difference between the uniforms for the two forces, from them. Perhaps camo'd helmet covers for the marines, and plain ones for the army?

Just know looking at the Battlefront site, it looks like of could use the U.S. Flames of War: Vietnam (VUS702 Rifle Platoon Airmobile) for U.S. European Cold War, as well as from the Flames Of War: Arab Israeli Egyptian (AAR722 Meshah Meykaneykeyh Platoon) as Soviet Inf. vehicles well that's a pick and chose but they would work for 1960-70 Cold war.

You cant really tell anything on the pockets for the U.S. and they have M-16s and the Egyptians have AK-47's

Yea they are not perfect but not a bad match. But very good start if you wanted to go in to that theater.

The leaf pattern helmet cover was standard in all theatres from the early 60s (I think it was adopted as standard in 1963 although don't hold me to that).

The tropical and temperate uniforms were significantly different. As I said before, the uniform worn in Europe (OG 107 fatigues) consisted of a shirt tucked into trousers that had no thigh pockets. The tropical uniform had a jacket that was worn loose over the trousers, which had thigh pockets. The upper slanted pockets won't show on 15mm figures, the thigh pockets and loose worn jacket will.

OG 107 fatigues

Tropical combat uniform

I've run into this problem, too, trying to do a 1962 US armored cavalry troop. The Flashpoint M14 Marines work well enough, and I've been using Egyptians for Soviet motor rifle infantry.

Oh, and I seem to remember seeing the leaf pattern helmet on the Berlin Brigade in '61, along with M1 rifles.

Distribution of the M-14 was a hit and miss affair. Priority seems to have gone to the airborne units and the Marines. McNamara, when he found out some units in Europe still had M-1s, had them replaced immediately with M-14s.Both the 1st Infantry Division and the 25th as well as the Marines initially deployed to Vietnam with M-14's.
1963 sounds like a good a date for the camo helmet covers.
This is a good reference for early 1960's US equipment. The PRC-6, PRC-10 and M14A1's are interesting. Also unlike most training films from the 60's the Opfor is actually using Mosin Nagants and DP-28's. not exactly up to date but still interesting. YouTube link

Ah, thanks for the pics of the two uniform styles.

Does anyone know when the USA switched over to the tropical style uniform, for the European Theater?

Also, did the OG 107 fatigues include an overcoat, like the BDU jackets, that soldiers wore, for cold, or cooler weather?

If so for the latter, I suspect it might look very similar in 15mm scale to that of the tropical uniform.

Just looked at the Flashpoint minis again, armed with the M-14, and can't really tell from the pics, even when zooming in 4x.

If I had to guess, I'd say they are wearing the later uniform. However, with weapons, gear belts, etc., it is hard to tell. Perhaps the waist belts with gear on it is the giveaway, but I would think troops going into battle, even if wearing the "boyscout" uniform would want to wear a heavy belt to carry a canteen, ammo, and some miscellaneous other gear when in the field.

If pressed, I could use them as stand-ins for the earlier period troops, without too much difficulty, since at least the rifle is right.

The US never officially switched from OG 107 to the tropical uniform in Europe. Until I read this thread, I wasn't aware that the tropical uniform was worn anywhere in Europe but I can imagine that stocks would crop up here and there. The OG 107 was worn from 1958 to 1980, when it was replaced by BDUs in woodland pattern but the transition to BDUs began about 2 years prior.

The basic uniform was augmented by the M65 jacket, in plain olive green until the 1980s, which was very similar to the M1943 combat jacket worn from about September 1944 onwards. The M65 was also worn in Vietnam in the highland regions or at night times when temperatures were cooler.

You might find ARVN figures might make a better match for European US army of the 60s and 70s than US Vietnam ones. They wore uniforms that were tailored very much like OG 107s and they wore M1 helmets with the leaf pattern cover. The only thing is the ARVN never used the M-14 rifle so it would be M-16s all the way.

Those OG 107s just sucked, they had no functional pockets like the Jungles or the later BDUs … and IMO, really didn't look like a combat uniform. More like a cheap way to outfit your military …

Thanks for the info, ubercommando.

Looks like, if doing battle from 1965 on, in 15mm scale, the M65 will probably look very similar to the BDUs of the late 1970s and 1980s, to me.

I appreciate the tip on the ARVN troops as well.

Your only problem then would be trouser pockets and rolled up sleeves. You might find filing down or cutting off the pockets might help.

The trouser pockets are no problem as they could be the winter field pants.
We wore them all the time.
Or the figures could be painted as being in MOPP level 1.
Any time we were in the field, we were at a minimum of MOPP level 1.

Unless your really looking hard and painting details in it is not going to be noticed.

I would go for it as a major project but I am heavy in to 1/285th WW-II and Cold War.

I built an airborne rifle company in the 1957-64 period using the Flashpoint early war Marines and vehicles from Quality Casting.11th ACR is right. Unless someone is really looking hard 15mm and a decent paint job hide a wealth of sins. I do wish someone made US Army troops for the period with M-14s and the proper flak jackets and field gear but until then the Flashpoint Marines are it.

I was forgetting about the M65 trousers and the pockets on them. I think, after looking at some figure ranges, that a mix of ARVN and Vietnam era US would work for USAEUR in 15mm.

Which of course begs the question, who makes the best, and/or decent ARVN troops in 15mm?

Looking for nice sculpts, and a variety of action poses, if available.

I liked the old Field Trousers with thigh pockets, but you couldn't wear them all the time, as noted … but yes, a lot of time you were in MOPP. When I was a freshman ROTC cadet in '75, we were initiatly issued M-14s.

These are the figures that I used for my Vietnam/Cold War Europe Americans. I mean absolutely no offense to the people who have already posted on the uniform differences (they obviously know far more than myself on the topic) but it wasn't an issue for me. In 15mm the differences are not THAT noticeable, and the sleeves being rolled up and the jacket being untucked can be explained as easily as "Its a combat zone" or "no combat unit ready unit ever passed inspection" As far as I am concerned, the average Infantryman had far more important things on his mind than "Crap… shirt isn't tucked in straight… hold the war!" If that was your only issue, I would go with them.
Just my opinion
Joe