"British Armoured Recce " Topic

A few more questions about british armour in the NWE campaigns of 44-45.

Each one of the three armoureb divisions of the 21st AG had an Armoured Recce Rgt equiped with Cromwell medium tanks.
My sources states that this Rgt, though part of the Reco Corps, was organised like any other armour rgt.
- Does it mean that they also incorporated Sherman Vc Firefly among their troop of Coromwell?
- What was the colour of the squadron tactical signs for that Rgt?

In each of those armour rgt was also a recce "platoon", part of the HQ squadron, and mounted on 11 Stuart light tanks.
- How were they suddivided into that "platoon"? 3 troops of 3 plus 2 command tanks?

Now, about the Rgts of the independant armoured brigades mounted on Churchill infantry tanks:
- did they also field a Recce platoon of Stuarts?

I am also guessing to figure how common were the "turretless" Stuarts, or if they must be considered just as a curiosity.
- Could they had been encountered in the "reconnaissance platoon" of the armoured rgts, or were they rather used by other branches of service for special tasks, like RA for towing 17lbs AT or as AOP tanks?

Mark,
I am pretty sure you know everything about, please, share once again.

Cheers to all.

François.

Now, about the Rgts of the independant armoured brigades mounted on Churchill infantry tanks:
- did they also field a Recce platoon of Stuarts?

It is my understanding that they do. Certainly mine do .

Also note that the Churchill units were "tank" brigades, "armored" implied cruiser tanks, i.e. Shermans and Cromwells.

All armoured regiments, of whatever type, had a recce troop of Stuarts. I gather the turretless varieties were quite common.

The Recce Regiment for the Guards Armoured, the Welsh Guards had 4 Cromwells per troop, with a Challenger replacing one of them later in the year to give them extra punch.

If they were an Armoured unit they had 3 Cromwells and a Sherman Firefly.

Is my understanding anyway.

My sources states that this Rgt, though part of the Reco Corps, was organised like any other armour rgt.
- Does it mean that they also incorporated Sherman Vc Firefly among their troop of Coromwell?
- What was the colour of the squadron tactical signs for that Rgt?

No Fireflys in Recce Regiments

White Tac markings.

See towards the bottom of this webpage of mine link

Hi TC,

The Armoured Recce Regiments were actually part of the Royal Armoured Corps (like any Armoured Regiment), rather than the Recce Corps. As it happens, the Recce Corps had in any case been absorbed by the Royal Armoured Corps by Normandy, though still wore the Recce Corps badges.

Armoured Recce Regiments initially didn't have any 17pdr tanks at all. Each Armoured Recce Squadron was organised in the 'old' style, with a Sqn HQ (1x 75mm Cromwell & 2x 95m Cromwell), each with 3x 75mm Cromwells.

The Canadian Armoured Recce (South Alberta Regt) was organised the same, though used Shermans instead of Cromwell – again, no 17pdr tanks.

The Polish Armoured Recce had Cromwells, but only had four Troops per Squadron, due to lack of manpower.

Note that most of the Armoured Recce Regiments suffered heavy losses during the August battles, for want of a 17pdr tank while tangling with German armour – Welsh Guards and Northants Yeo during Op 'Bluecoat' and the South Albertas during 'Tractable'.

Challengers began to appear in Armoured Recce Regiments from mid August 1944, having already been trialled in 5 RTR. As Challengers were introduced, Armoured Recce Squadrons changed their organisation to reflect the standard 'new' Armoured Squadron organisation of four Troops, each with 3x 75mm tanks and 1x 17pdr tank.

The Canadian Armoured Recce received Fireflies at around this time.

The Regimental Recce Troop was normally organised as an HQ Section of 2x Stuarts, plus 3x Recce Sections, each of 3x Stuart.

However, note that the Welsh Guards replaced these with Cromwells and the Northants Yeomanry used Scout Cars. The 7th Armoured Division also arrived in Normandy with a proportion of its Stuarts 'jalopied' and the 11th Armoured Division followed suit after 'Epsom' (and also reduced the troop size to 8x Stuarts). In 1945 Chaffees also replaced some Stuarts in some regiments.

Yes, the Churchill-equipped Tank Regiments also had a Recce Troop. These tended to be the older Stuart III (M3A1).

As mentioned above, the 7th Armoured Division arrived in Normandy with approximately one Stuart in each Section having been Jalopied. The proportion changed later to roughly 1x turreted Stuart to 2x Jalopies. In 1945, the remaining turreted Stuarts were generally replaced by Chaffee (approx. 1 per Recce Section).

The 11th Armoured Division apparently jalopied 'most' of its Stuarts immediately after Op Epsom and before Goodwood. As mentioned they also reduced Troop size to 8x Stuarts (HQ of 2 and 3x Sections of 2). I can't remember off the top of my head if they received any Chaffee, but there is a recent thread on that subject if you search.

The Guards don't seem to have gone into jalopying their Stuarts, though did receive a proportion of Chaffee in 1945.

Jalopies were certainly used in the OP role, but pinning them down to exact units is difficult. I have definitely seen them used as Troop Commanders' tanks for towed 17pdr batteries, but not as tractors (the tractors in those instances were M14 Halftracks, C15TAs or Crusader Tractors).

I should add that the Recce Troop was a massive 'Troop' (often referred to as a 'Squadron' in many accounts, but it was served by two officers – a Captain and a Lieutenant or Subaltern) instead of the usual single officer.

I've also heard/read 'Patrols' used to describe the sub-units of a Recce Troop. I don't know which was the formal 'by the book' term.

On a similar vein, infantry Carrier Platoons tended to use 'Section' as the sub-division, while Carrier Troops of Recce Regiments used 'Patrols'.

There is a photo of 8th Hussars waiting to cross the Rhine that shows 2 Challenger and 2 Firefly.

Thank you very much Mark for those precisions.
Cheers,
François.

As mkenny says, the odd Firefly did creep in as battlefield replacements. Similarly, the odd Challenger turned up in other regiments.

In 1945, the remaining turreted Stuarts were generally replaced by Chaffee (approx. 1 per Recce Section).

I hadn't realized the US gave Chaffees out on Lend-Lease, as I didn't think all of our own Stuarts had been replaced before the war ended.

They weren't, but we still got them :)

Here's an earlier thread:

TMP link

And a photo:

Note the right-hand group here (a 7th Armoured Div Recce Troop with mixed Stuart Jalopies and Chaffee):

Sorry, just realised that first Chaffee photo is post-war, hence the 'C' Sqn circle sign. All wartime Chaffees were RHQ Recce Troop tanks and therefore had HQ Sqn diamonds.

Nice looking tank the Chaffee. I didn't realise we got any. Will have to get some for my recce troops.

Yes, very neat little tanks.

What you really need is a turretless one commanded by Telly Savalas holding back the M47 'King Tigers':)

Patrick Delaforce's "Taming the Panzers" has this from Lt. Robin Lemon about 3RTR's Recce Troop:

"On arrival in Normandy the Recce Troop consisted of 13 Stuart (Honey) tanks…. With their high turrets mounting a rather ineffective 35mm [sic] gun, they made conspicuous targets. Without turrets they provided a low silhouette, were fast with a good cross country performance. Soon the turrets were taken off and the gaps left half covered by the metal engine plates taken from knocked out Shermans and cut into half moon shapes. Browning machine guns were then mounted on these plate and manned by the Stuart tank commanders."(p 174)

Bill Bellamy's "Troop Leader" also has a little bit about him commanding Chaffees in the Recce troop of 8th KRI Hussars in 1945. He says:

"The troop was equipped with the American Chafee tanks, Honeys, Jalopys and scout-cars…." (p192)so it seems to have been a complete mix.

Cheers,
Bertie