"Tell me about 10mm and 12mm stuff" Topic

Perusing the thread about switching to 15mm (from 20mm) to save space, I'm reminded once again that I'd like to find something smaller than 20mm but larger than 6mm. But I'm not convinced that 15mm is all that much different (space-wise) than 20mm.

A few points:
1. I'm not that concerned about storage space; it's space on the table I'm after -- room to maneuver with a fair-sized force.
2. I'm more interested in armor than in infantry, although I admit that some infantry is (unfortunately) necessary in order to be realistic. (Unless maybe I play the NA dessert.)
3. I have my own home-made rules, and I really would prefer to play 1:1, with individually based figures.

So, what I want to know is:
1. What is available (and from where) in each scale (10mm and 12mm) and are the various brands compatible with each other?
2. What about terrain, especially buildings and trees?
3. Why is 10mm better than 12mm, or vice versa?

I looked at 10, 12 and 15 ages ago. I decided on 15 becasue I already had loads of terrain in 15mm. But frankly the 12s were not really that much smaller. Minifigs made them. Nice thing is 10 and 12 are close enough you can use 1:144 kits and die-cast! Lots of stuff available in this scale.

If you didn't want to game 1:1 I'd suggest going down to 3mm and REALLY have maneuver room.

That said I play Flames of War in 1/2 scale using 6mm and if you keep the armies the same the table is HUGE and completely changes the game dynamics!

Crispy: thanks for the thought, but I already have tons of 6mm stuff, some of it is even painted, but it's just TOO small. Oh, I can tell a Sherman from a Tiger, but I can't tell Sherman #1 from #4 without a magnifying glass! And there's no way that I'm going to single-base the infantry at that scale.

Are the Minifigs available in the US?

I'm not familiar with 1:144 kits nor die-cast; where do I get them? (you?)

There is a range of die cast and plastic models from Dragon called 'Can Do' or something like that in 1:144. They are prepainted. They seem to have a fair selection of tanks. No French and no light German tanks like the I and II though. Late war should be pretty well covered in that range though.

You can use N scale terrain to go with them.

Pendraken is nice and cheap. I use Pendraken tanks and Minifigs infantry. Pendraken also has some nice 10mm WWII buildings in resin.
Anyway, I'd go for 10 mm FOW and Plastics infantry and tanks.

How big is your table? Table size will matter.

As I mentioned in the other thread I use a 3x5. But I can put out a 6x7.5 plus the 3x5 if I want.

DL

Alright man, you're speaking my language. Here's what I have for you:

1. What is available (and from where) in each scale (10mm and 12mm) and are the various brands compatible with each other?
Pendraken – This is the vast majority of the stuff I have. They are from UK, can get them via "The Warstore" in the US, and I do both. Go Warstore if you're ordering stuff they have in stock, go Pendraken direct if not. Most economical, you know exactly what you're going to get, and has pretty much every nationality and theater, though sometimes the amount (lack) of poses can be very aggravating (i.e., there are some packs of ten men that are only one pose, which personally I'm not a fan of).

Pendraken late-war Brits, individually based.

Minifigs – The rest of my troops are Minifigs (I've seen/held the rest, but don't own any). I like Minifigs because they get into stuff that Pendraken doesn't (Moderns), and they have some great, action-oriented poses. They are noticeably slimmer than Pendraken, and figures tend to have less equipment than Pendraken, but good overall. As far as I've been able to discern, you can get them only from Caliver/Minifigs UK (they used to be sold in the US but folded when Tom Dye went to Germany, and I patiently await his return to the States). Their pricing, shipping, and exchange rate conspire to make them more expensive than Pendraken, and while there are lots of poses, you can't always count on getting what you think the pack should have in it.

Minifigs US Marines (sorry they're multi-based, I don't have any Minifigs WWII singly based, only Moderns).

Perrin – They're in the US, are pretty much comparable to Minifigs in build and price. Don't know of a way to get them except ordering direct.

Wargames South – Brit, really nice looking vehicles but pretty doggone expensive. Don't know of a way to get them except ordering direct.

Pithead – Another Brit, pretty decent vehicles, having pretty much every possible model (including obscure) imaginable. I'm personally not a fan of their infantry, just my opinion. Don't know of a way to get them except ordering direct.

Takara – Fantastic pre-painted vehicles. A little pricey, but they are pre-painted, which I love because I hate to paint vehicles. I'd rate their selection as 'moderate,' with plenty of gaps, but what they do have is beautiful. The big problem is they are no longer in production, so good luck finding them, and if they're on Ebay prepare to fork over your first born.

A Takara Pz Mk III next to a Pendraken Sdkfz 222.

Can.Do – Another set of pre-painted vehicles. Not much in the way of selection, and also out of production, though I have seen there are 'build-it yourself' kits available in Japan, but pretty expensive.

2. What about terrain, especially buildings and trees?
Almost exclusively I use trees I bought off the internet (Ebay and/or cake decorating stores). For buildings I use (again, almost exclusively) JR Miniatures products in 15mm, which I find works out great with individually mounted men on pennies.

Pendraken singly mounted men with JR Minis building, walls, and craters. Trees are from a cake decorating store, and the fields are from Hotzmats.

3. Why is 10mm better than 12mm, or vice versa?
To me, and I suppose I'm not very discerning, it's a wash. As far as I know, Minifigs is the only one that pitches itself as 12mm, though their figures are the same height as Pendraken's, which are pitched as 10mm. Along those lines, I've seen Pendraken's vehicles listed as 1/150 and Minifigs as 1/160, though Minifigs' vehicles are a hair larger. Neither is as big as Takara's 1/144 vehicles. So, to me 10mm and 12mm is the same, and mixing sometimes gets into issues less with manufacturer and more with individual sculptors.

Pendraken German on left, Minifigs German on right.

"…it's space on the table I'm after -- room to maneuver with a fair-sized force." This was a big deal for me too. I started off in 15mm, but it just looked some danged big. I know it's probably the most popular scale, but I just couldn't get over how big everything looked, and how it made all my engagements look like they were taking place at 100 yards. For me, this pic shows what a big selling point for 10mm.

The Yanks have an armored car moving up the road on the left, an armored car and a couple Stuarts moving up on the right, and a platoon on the hill in the foreground. Recon has just uncovered a platoon of Panzers at the top of the photo. To me this looks great in 10mm, in 15 or larger it would look too cluttered and close.

For a bunch more 10mm goodness, check out the blog:
blackhawkhet.blogspot.com

V/R,
Jack

As Just Jack says 10 and 12mm are practically the same thing.

Infantry especially is much the same height between Pendraken, Minifigs and Pithead. MF infantry is a bit thinner.

Vehicle wise there are more size differences, with the various 1/144 plastics being at the top end size wise, then War Games South, Pithead, Minfigs and Pendraken at the smaller end. But this doesn't hold for all vehicles from all manufacturers.

Personally I choose 10mm a good few years ago as the tanks are small enough to get enough on the table, and the infantry are big enough to still see.

While you can single base 10mm infantry, you will end up with quite big bases – I have gone for 2 figures to a base, which seems to give a good compromise between moving the figures and spreading the platoon out.

Jack: Thanks for all that info! Gives me much to think about.

I hadn't realized that 12mm and 10mm were so close as to be interchangeable. Good to know. The Pendraken figure actually looks like he is in a larger scale than the Minifig; he just has legs that are too short for the rest of him.

What eras/fronts are best covered in this scale? I'd like to shift to a different era/front than what I have in 20mm -- maybe Russian 1943 (I have 41-2 and 44-5), or North Africa (won't need much terrain stuff, nor much infantry). Not interested in the Pacific War (now there's a contradiction in terms!).

My table is 5'3" x 8'. Unfortunately the room is not big enough for a 6' width and still get around all sides. I find that more than about 12 units (vehicles or squads or heavy weapons) is about all that looks right on it with 20mm stuff. More looks unrealistically crowded unless the terrain is more confining that I have building, trees etc. to simulate.

I don't play face-to-face, only online, and don't expect to ever move from this house, so transportation of the models, figures, etc. is not a consideration.

I don't mind painting vehicles, but infantry figures soon get boring, and 1 man takes at least as much time/work as 1 tank.

A couple of years ago when I was just getting into WWII, I went through a lot of agonizing hours trying to decide between 20 and 10mm. I went with 10 mainly because of table space and price, and havenīt regretted it at all.

I currently do North Africa and the Pacific, and will be branching out into the early European theater soon.
With 10mm you have a huge selection, including my pet project, a what if pitting Czechoslovakia against Germany in 1938.
Like Just Jack,I really like Pendraken, but I also mix in Pithead. No matter what era you choose, you will be well covered in 10mm, so good luck and enjoy it!

@ Don, I'm a committed 15 Ancients player, too many armies to change now, but if I was starting again, I'd go with 10mm. When I got back into buying WWII about 6 or so years ago, I tried to go the 10mm route, but troopsand weapons just weren't available (I wanted to do early war, fall of France, or North Africa), or were being released too slowly for my needs, so I reverted to 15 mm.
I did buy some 10 mm which were excellent. I liked Pendraken, and the Pithead vehicles are brilliant, I even bought some of the Can Do range, slightly larger. 1/144 aircraft are easy to come by, and 'N' guage railway terrain works fine, particularly the Hornby Lyddle End 'N' range buildings(if a bit pricey, but you can get deals or second hand). The figure ranges these days are much bigger, with greater spread. I sometimes wish I'd stayed with 10 mm for WWII

I sold my 15 and 20mm a couple years ago in favor of 10 mm. Space is not an issue for me. I just think 10 mm looks better on the table.

Pretty much everything ancients through WW2 is available. Minifigs does moderns, while Pendraken does the Falklands and Vietnam, plus is releasing Arab-Israeli Wars. Pithead has started to release a Korean War range which will be the next big hit to the budget. Kalistra also does WW2 and is releasing a WW1 range. The pre-painted Japanese plastics are no longer in production, but a couple of companies are working on fixing that. Can Do did a line of early war German panzers and half tracks that a Japanese firm discovered and is producing again. All of these lines can be used together as long as you don't put different manufacturers' vehicles beside each other. Yes, some of the pre-paints are expensive on e-Bay, but with effort and luck, you can find them for as little as $1 USD each. Bits and pieces regularly show up at convention flea markets. There are also a number of 3d printed vehicles showing up through Shapeways and from China, but I haven't personally seen them.

Most 15 mm terrain works with 10 mm, since many manufacturers actually scale down the dimensions of the buildings to a 10 mm footprint. N gauge model railroad is 1/160, so you can use the extensive range of terrain available from that market.

12mm is 1/144th scale in my book.

10mm should be about 1/180th, or so, though I've seen it billed as anything from 1/160th – 1/180th.

You will definitely notice the difference in size between the vehicles, if you put them side by side, or nearby, e.g. like in the same unit.

I wouldn't recommend mixing 12mm vehicles with 10mm, in the same unit, due to that, or even the same types of vehicles from different manufacturers, unless you have to.

The 12mm Takara and CanDo vehicles are on a par in quality with the Wargames South minis, and vice versa. All are superb, and 1/144th scale.

As mentioned, Minifigs has some decent infantry options, but are now only available from the UK.

Their vehicles are smaller than the 1/144th (12mm) minis, being about 1/160th, or so, from what I've read.

Can't say for sure, since I don't own any, but believe Pithead and Pendraken vehicles may be smaller than the Minifigs range, e.g. closer to the 1/180th scale of the spectrum.

Not mentioned, are 21st Century vehicles, which are now out of business, but they produced a nice range of inexpensive, and reasonably well sculpted 1/160th scale vehicles. Paint jobs on them vary, but are okay, with a little work, or can be left as is, if you aren't too picky.

They produced mainly German Armor, for the mid-late war, period, but also a few American vehicles.

I've got some surplus 21st Century vehicles, if you are interested in them, as well as some of the 12mm Takara WTM08 tanks (Battle of the Bulge series), if you are interested in them.

For the former, the following are available, e.g.: Panthers, Brummbars, Stug IVs, Tiger I, Tiger II, Jagdpanther, possibly some PzIVH, M-18 Hellcat, M-7 Priest, etc.

For the latter, I have a little of everything from the set, e.g. JgPz IV, Schwimmwagen, M-8 armored cars, Panthers, etc..

E-mail me at:

calidreamer3 AT hotmail (d0t} com

if you are interested in more info.

[delete spaces and use the @ symbol and . where appropriate]

I suspect the pre-painted C21 vehicles I have are less expensive than even the unpainted lead of other manufacturers.

For buildings, you can make your own out of paper/cardboard/balsa or basswood.

If you have lots of surplus cash, you can buy some of the nice N-scale plastic kits of European designs, they sell, or you can order, from model railroad and hobby stores.

For trees, check out Woodland Scenics plastic, assemble them yourself range. Much cheaper than the pre-made stuff.

You can also get trees, especially evergreens, from other manufacturers, or on eBay. Michael's, and other craft stores like Hobby Lobby usually have a lot of these at Christmas.

For hills, make your own out of foam, and Woodland Scenics flocking, or put magazines, books, pieces of foam, etc. underneath a fabric sheet, or piece of wool matting, that is the color you want for your battles, e.g. green for grass, tan for the desert, and white for snow-covered ground.

Can't say for sure, since I don't own any, but believe Pithead and Pendraken vehicles may be smaller than the Minifigs range, e.g. closer to the 1/180th scale of the spectrum.

No. Pithead are advertised as 1/150 and are pretty close to the 1/144 plastics in size.

Pendraken are smaller but not as small as 1/180.

"What eras/fronts are best covered in this scale?"

EVERYTHING is available in this scale. Seriously, I don't know of any vehicle or infantry weapon, or any nation's infantry, which are not available in 10 or 12mm.

At a price far less than 15mm.

I find, if you want to fight just an infantry battle, then go with 15 or 20mm. If you want to fight just a tank battle, go with 6mm. But if you want to fight a combined arms, infantry and tanks interacting on the table, then 10/12mm is the way to go.

Regarding the vehicles, it is my experience that the Pendraken and Pithead go together well on the table. Both companies make fine tanks, although I must say the Pithead M3 Stuart is far superior to the Pendraken version. Other than that, there isnīt much difference between the companies, they are both great.

"No. Pithead are advertised as 1/150 and are pretty close to the 1/144 plastics in size.

Pendraken are smaller but not as small as 1/180".

Thanks for the clarifications.

Sounds like they are about the same size as the 21st Century vehicles then, which are slightly smaller than 1/144th scale.

While the above was being written I was checking out some of the sources. I'm most impressed with the Pithead line so far. Nice looking models and pretty full lines (tho I'm not interested in the smaller countries, so that's wasted on me). However, their site fails to list prices, even in pounds (which, last I checked are worth about $1.50 USD)! Also, it says I can order by email, but doesn't give their email address.

Their infantry figures are uneven in quality, judging by their photos: some very dwarfish-looking, others pretty good. I think I could live with them (as I said, infantry isn't really my thing).

Tuscaloosa, I tend to agree with you about infantry/tanks vs. scales. Unfortunately, most of my 6mm stuff is late-war NW Europe, where combined arms were the norm and the requisite. I'm going to try running an online game fairly soon with some of my 6mm stuff and see how it goes.

People keep saying the 10mm stuff can be used with 15mm buildings, but I don't have any 15mm buildings. Just some 6mm and some 20mm. There is a model RR shop in town where I could get some N gauge buildings, I suppose.

Thatīs strange about the prices, they used to be there. If you download their order form the prices are listed there. The email I used is vanilla55 at sky dot com.

I quite agree with you on the infantry, that is why all mine are Pendraken. The tanks are nice though.

Don, Send me an email and I'll send you a sample of what GFI was doing in the USA. Won't ship until Wednesday since that is when our post office is open here.

tomdye14 AT yahoo DOT com.

While out of production for now, I did just post some shots of some of the WWI line we did. Sad part is that my designer did so many items of equipment that I didn't have time to moid production molds before I left. I'll post the link next.

smallwargaming.blogspot.de

Jack (and others) has explained this scale very well! I have been an advocate for these since I first saw them in 1998.

Thanks, Guys!

Tom

Don, you can start collecting buildings right now. And you can't beat the price.

link
link

There are also Yahoo groups for 10 mm and 1/144 scale with lots of good stuff, including comparison photos.

To order from Pithead, download the template, (prices are one it), fill it out with what you want and e-mail it to Phil at the address Texas Jack gave. I am waiting for an order that was just shipped this week.

link Might be useful for you – echoes a lot of what's already been said on scale variations, plus lots and lots of photos…

You might consider GHQ's newer infantry poses. The figures are grossly out of scale, not 1/285 (6mm). Certainly the very newest seem to be encroaching on 10mm

Pithead are my favourite 10mm supplier for tanks and guns. Most of their tanks come with separate track assemblies, which helps give much more definition around the wheels and tracks. While still being easy to assemble.

Pendraken infantry are nearly always good. Some pithead infantry is great (Late War British ) others are a not as great.

Hi, Fred. Minifigs also has done separate tracks since the beginning for the same reasons. Doing it any other way will tear out the mold quickly due to overhangs. Indeed, Minifigs infantry are not as "portly" as others; they are more in proportion to my eyes. And unlike in some other scales, no "Hey Joe" type figures.

Heck, I would never boo-off any 10-12-1/144th scale mini off the table unless an attempt to paint it was not even tried. (I don't take losses from unpainted figures!) (Insert Smiley)

PaperTerrain's entire (very extensive) range of wargame buildings and battlefield accessories is available in 10/12mm scale.

paperterrain.com

Following up on the "what's available in 12mm" issue:

One real advantage to me of 12mm is that it's compatible with model RR n scale. So, when I needed appropriate 1940 era dumptrucks for my US Army Construction Engineer Battalion, it was easy to find 1940s era dump trucks on model RR sites. Even for 15mm, it might be harder to find 1940s dump trucks.

Tom, I have a bunch of Minifigs stuff – and yes they are made of many pieces, which gives good undercuts.

But (there had to be a but didn't there) I have found MFs stuff very hard work to get together – the M3 Stuart being one of the worst offenders, as the tracks basically don't fit on to the hull and under the track guards, without some major surgery. Also the track detail is very basic on most MFs stuff, so you get lovely detail on the running gear, but very basic track detail.

MFs infantry are definitely more in proportion – but unfortunately no others are, and there are more ranges available from other suppliers. I really like the MFs 8th army I have – but some of the other ranges (British Paras) really could do with a lot more web kit on the figures.

Hopefully this comes across as constructive criticism

No problem, Fred. All comments made are fair dinkum! (Especially with the M3.) Our designer was going to redo it but we got him sidetracked into WWI stuff, instead. "I" wanted an M-36B2 for so long, I had our designer just do one….which was better than even I had envisioned!

The nice part is in seeing so many others discovering this scale! I can remember when selling the scale was harder than selling the products! (once the customer could see how nice they were, it was the scale/size objection that needed to be overcome. The shear number of offerings helped to overcome the big (and very real) issue that this scale WOULD be supported.

Wish I was still in business of making these! We had a great team on both sides of the big pond working in concert with each other….until the economy tanked.

All of our vehicles are modelled at 1:150th now, and we'll be re-doing some of the earlier ones which don't quite size up with the modern sculpts.

The infantry are all around 10mm to the eye, 11.5mm ish overall, which puts them in the 5 and a 1/2 to 6 foot range in height.

It's a great scale to get into, and can look excellent on the table:

(All pics from our annual Painting Competition)

I tried downloading Pithead's order form, but it didn't work.

What I saw of Pendraken's infantry didn't impress me – as with many small-scale figures, they seem to have large heads and chests and small legs.

Tom: If GFI is out of business, what good does it do me to know what you used to have?

I have a bunch of the paper buildings in 6mm scale. They're a lot of work to assemble. But I'll have a look.

Does anyone make AT guns in towed position as well as in firing position? (One reason for the smaller scale is so that things can move!)

Personally, I'd try to stick with 12mm and 1/144 vehicles. I've been amazed at what all is out there on Hobbylink Japan.

Some of the exotic items are painfully pricey (~100 yen to the dollar), but there is a huge variety available just between the Dragon Can Do and the World Tank Museum models.

"Tom: If GFI is out of business, what good does it do me to know what you used to have?"

Hi, Don. Because the ranges are still available from Caliver/Minifigs in the UK. The WWI and moderns I will try to get back into production when I can get stationed back in the USA. Hope it will be soon! Should have been reassigned last Feb!

Hey, Look….I was just trying to help!

"I tried downloading Pithead's order form, but it didn't work."

try this . Highlight / copy / paste. simples

Alternatively the site says "If you cannot use the template then just send us a list of the model code numbers and quantities you require."

"Does anyone make AT guns in towed position as well as in firing position?"

you can bend them closed with 10mm scale , this works fine.

Alternatively the site says "If you cannot use the template then just send us a list of the model code numbers and quantities you require."

Well, yeah, but it didn't say how to "send."

try this . Highlight / copy / paste. simples

Got to have something to highlight first.

Tom. OK, now I get it. Sorry to be slow. My excuse is I'm old. (Sometimes I can get away with that.)

"Well, yeah, but it didn't say how to "send."

Its all a bit clunky but you have to click on "How To Order"
Then "Template" .

The address is vanilla55@sky.com

I thought 1/144 was so good I commisiond some directly from 'Shipyards but they are Moderns. Terrain, for hills we (MG) do not even make our own. HexonII from Kalistra (available from UK) is in my opinion unbeatable for hills at this scale. MG may be able to sup[ply some of the very specialist shapes that Kalistr don't make but even without them they are superb. Use the 2 high standard. Its relatively expensive (about the cost of a reasonable 20mm army) but is ideal for flexability of design. I don't wargame using hexes. personaly I only use it for the hills not the basebosrd and overlay non hex roads and vilages which makes it look good while being excelent to map. Obviously we use fold flat 1/144 card buildings by us! The trick for urban is to make a simple village floor plan ( no more than about 2 sheets of A4 gives you a village more than biginough fort most needs, that the buildings lock too. That way you can take them off move the troops and pop them back. Do it right and its as good as playeing urban at 1/72. Base of woods use Angel hair and cheap trees or expensive N gauge jobs. E bay has all possible prices.

Best thing we did was go to 1/144. Like folk said 10mm vehicals are very noticeably smaller and not suitable for our rules where you need to turn turrets to save lots of rules.

Keep a few 1/144 for very low level urban if you feel the need for very detailed man by man games.

Do Pendraken or Pitheads turrets not turn?

Young Guard,
We went for 1/144 as at 10mm very small vehicals like the Modern Weisel is too small to confortably turn the gun. Pendragon may turn their turrets but we considered it too small to be practical for our games.

Why can't you turn the turrets?

donlowry.
I said it was considered impractical to turn the turrets at that scale on the smaller vehicles. It is theoreticaly possible but not easy and quick as it needs to be for MG. hence the move to 12mm. By volume 10mm is 60% smaller.

I still don't understand the difficulty. I can turn the turrets on my 6mm tanks, why not 10mm?

You can turn the turrets on everything by every manufacturer I know of in 10mm and 12mm. I got over 1000 of 'em. Oh a StugIII, or an Opel Blitz, can't turn the turret sorry.

donlowry,
Turning a "turret" on a modern Wiesal for example is a bit of a pain. In 10mm it would be harder. Its down to personal preference. You can turn turrets on 6mm but I find its just to fiddley to make me enjoy the game.