Freiherr Graham | 06 Feb 2014 11:24 a.m. PST |
I'll be painting regiments Minuzzi and Herzog Clement soon as part of my 4th Austro-Turkish War 1737-39 project. Stephen Manley's "The WAS – a wargamer's guide part IX Uniforms of the Danish and German States' Armies 1739-1748 mentions the blue used at that date was "Savoy Blue". "greyer than royal blue". What blue to use? Would WW 1 French blue do the trick? Also, am I right in thinking Minuzzi have buff facings and Herzog Clement "light red" (= orange?) at this date? And Mr. Manley also mentions "the experimental 'camisole' and shell coat combination of 1738-1740 had proved to be expensive and had probably been discarded prior to any serious military events". This is the only reference to this that I have seen, so far. I have no idea what it looks like. Or does he mean that I should buy a load of nude figures, and add muskets?!!! All help gratefully received.
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dandandan | 06 Feb 2014 11:48 a.m. PST |
I thought it was a cornflower blue. Truth is it was probably many different shades depending on supply and weathering. Gamers get really anal about "actual" colours. |
Bernhard Rauch | 06 Feb 2014 11:53 a.m. PST |
This is the beginning of what will probably be another very long thread, as for my 2 cents worth: Pick any shade of medium to light blue you like. Natural dyes were notoriously varied and unstable. |
GildasFacit | 06 Feb 2014 12:17 p.m. PST |
At this period and with that description I'd go for Vallejo 'Flat Blue'. Horizon Blue would be both too light and too grey IMHO. |
Fat Wally | 06 Feb 2014 1:07 p.m. PST |
I would like to add that it is entirely dependent upon what size figures you're painting. The smaller size the lighter you need to go, optical illusions and all that. Kev |
Sparker | 06 Feb 2014 1:41 p.m. PST |
Yes I've always used Cornflower Blue for Bavarians. |
Herkybird | 06 Feb 2014 2:31 p.m. PST |
I think the colour of the lozenges on the Bavarian flag is a good guide! The blue was chosen by the Elector, who liked the colour! – I suggest cornflower blue is likely!-though I doubt anyone could call any blue from cornflower to light sky blue wrong, for the good reasons mentioned above! |
Freiherr Graham | 06 Feb 2014 3:09 p.m. PST |
Thanks guys! Interesting point about scale and optical illusions. I'm working in 15mm. |
Cardinal Hawkwood | 06 Feb 2014 5:15 p.m. PST |
it is Savoy Blue, if you have access to Funcken,s lace wars volume II their idea is well represented there.More of a slate blue than cornflower. Generally thought that the cornflower blue uniform came with the absorption of the Palatine into the Electorate in later 18C. As in most things a healthy debate goes on. I did some once in Reaper Ash grey
or templar blue ,
or possibly a mix of both The old GW enchanted blue works for those who want cornflower blue have a look at link and with the way things went in dying in the 18th C anyone of them may be approprited.All I can say is that Ibeleive the colour was darker and no where near as sharp as most people currently think. |
Cardinal Hawkwood | 06 Feb 2014 5:23 p.m. PST |
I would be mighty tempted by a colur close to this
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GildasFacit | 07 Feb 2014 5:23 a.m. PST |
The blue and white lozengy design pre-dates the electorate so can't possibly have been chosen by an Elector. It even pre-dates the Wittelsbach dynasty having originally been used by another Ducal family in the region. It is possibly one of the oldest of the surviving state flags and may date back to the 8th or 9th century. The design is almost certainly pre-heraldic. Most medieval drawings show a lighter blue than the examples given above but I don't think that the rather bright light blue usually seen on the flag was ever used on coats extensively. It would have been a difficult dye colour to obtain and quite expensive, something duller (greyer) and probably darker is much more likely. I'd have said the colours above were a bit dark but that can only be an opinion. |
Heinz Good Aryan | 07 Feb 2014 8:52 a.m. PST |
bavarian blue, wasn't that a german tv show about the munich police department??? :-) |
LtJBSz | 07 Feb 2014 9:02 a.m. PST |
Hardly, don't German police wear green? |
Rudi the german | 07 Feb 2014 1:04 p.m. PST |
Not anymore. It wears blue now for some years
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spontoon | 09 Feb 2014 10:22 a.m. PST |
The camisole was a sleeved waistcoat worn in working dress or warm weather. Usually in the facing colour. My Bavarians are painted too light. I used the same shade as for their flags. Tried darkening it up with an ink wash, with modest success. Now, I would use one shade lighter than cornflower blue. |
von Winterfeldt | 12 Feb 2014 5:01 a.m. PST |
The Bavarian police still wears green, Rudi the German is obviously a Prussian ;-)). As for the blue the Bavarians did wear, it changed several times, in the 7YW it was dark blue – for example. |
Supercilius Maximus | 12 Feb 2014 10:52 a.m. PST |
The idiosyncratic blue of the Bavarians dates from the late 17th Century; it is depicted in contemporary murals of one of their campaigns of that period, and it is lighter than often depicted – but in a grey way, rather than a bright, sky blue way. Unfortunately, there is no way of knowing how much the murals themselves have faded since that time. There was a period during the mid-18th Century when they stopped using it due to cost, and went for a more conventional dark blue as worn by the Prussians (but NOT the "chemical" colour – another common error among wargamers). However, they returned to the more traditional version for the Napoleonic period. Part of the reason wargamers go too light, is this set of uniform plates, whose coat colour is really more appropriate to a much later period (eg FPW):- link This series of plates, by Cantler, is thought to be much more accurate, but just look at the variation among the line infantry in just this one plate covering 1811:- link Here is one of a number of paintings by the artist Kobell, who was a contemporary painter and saw Bavarian troops first hand, in the field:-
And finally, some surviving uniforms in the Bavarian army museum; officer's coat, and private's coat:-
If anyone is familiar with the Foundry "Bavarian Cornflower Blue" palette (which is also too light), I would use the "A" tone on 28mm figures, and the "B" on 15mm. Pictures of actual conflowers (these are a proper flower, not the stuff you thicken soups with) can also vary widely, although this is the more normal colour:-
As you can see, it is way lighter than the uniform colours shown above; indeed the flower itself can vary from a royal blue, through to purple. Oddly enough, during the Franco-Prussian War, troops returning home were ignored by their communities because constant sweat and rain had turned their "cornflower blue" coatees
purple. |
Freiherr Graham | 18 Apr 2014 12:59 p.m. PST |
This has all been very useful. At the end of the day I've gone for Humbrol enamel 87 "steel grey" with a variable dash of 109 "WW1 blue". This gives a weathered denim type blue, appropriate for wool dyed with indigo(woad)and bleached by three years of Bosnian sun and dust. |
thehawk | 21 Apr 2014 3:37 a.m. PST |
images linked from the Empire Total War forums I don't think that this is the cornflower blue of the post SYW period. And Funcken seems to have not known about the dark blue issue of uniforms in the SYW. |
DHautpol | 22 Apr 2014 5:46 a.m. PST |
One factor to consider is just how dark is the dark blue being used on other units. The blue used for the Bavarians really needs to present a discernable difference to the darker blue. Another factor is, as has been mentioned in other posts, the scale of the figures being used; smaller figures require brighter colours otherwise they become little black blobs. For my 6mm Napoleonic French I used GW Ultramarines Blue, in retrospect too bright and for my 6mm SYW Prussians I used GW Enchanted Blue, which worked much better. The Enchanted Blue would work upto 10mm. Against these I found that Humbrol 109 WWI German Light Blue worked very well on my 6mm Napoleonic Bavarians and would probably convey the colour well in a number of scales. |