"Tanks for GSFG" Topic

Okay, you guys have been really helpful with my project on helping me identify the types of Soviet tanks I need for my Soviet vs. BAOR project and as such I have been painting a lot of 3mm T-64 tanks.

I will be ordering some T-80s in my next order, but before I do that I wanted to go back to the well of knowledge here before placing my order.

If I am building forces that one stand=one battalion… set around 84-85, , what would you guys suggest for my tank regiment composition? 1 T-80 and 2 T-64 battalions and the MR battalion? Or would there be more T-80s? And the tank battalion in the MRR, what would be best for that? It is my understanding that there are no T-72 battalions, but should I model anything else…are there enough T-62s to make a difference in modeling at this scale?

It was T-64 facing us then. (3 Shock Army) If I can remember the first T-80 went to 8GA. At least one Bn had T-62, the chaps in Berlin behind the Russian War Museum in Karlhorst I think. In the Imagery I looked at a Tank Regt had T-64 and nothing else. Others had T-80:

In addition BRIXMIS never reported any mix withing a Regt.

No T-72 in GSFG.

Tally Ho!

Very few T80s in 84-85. Initial roll out was unsuccessful (politically and technologically). Perhaps 2 regiments worth in the north during this period. The big ramp up (with some redesign) was in late 86 thru 88. The T64BV was being introduced in 85-86 as a stop gap upgrade. (Thicker hull armor… 90mm Steel +105 Fibreglass+50mm steel and reactive…)

Very few T62… they were officially withdrawn in the end of 84. Some divisions kept them for another year or two (they were easy to maintain and good training tanks).

GSFG regiments did not have a mix of operational tank types so a regiment was either a T-64 regt or, if recently equipped, a T-80 regt. T-64 regiments had a mix of T-64A's and T-64B's during the time period you are talking about, with up to a third of the tanks being T-64B with ERA.

Soviet Regiments organised themselves into Combined Arms groups for operations and did not fight as discrete Bns (ie. the Tk Bn in a MRR did not fight as such but provided a Tk Coy to each of the 3 MR Bns; likewise the MR Bn in a TR provided a MR Coy to each of the Tk Bns.)

For March Security, the regt would form Bn + sized 'Advance Guard'. For a MRR, the Advance Guard would consist of a MR Bn with a Tk Coy, Arty (up to 1 Bn of 122mm How – which were normally D-30 for BTR-equipped MRR and 2S1s for BMP equipped MRR), AD (MANPADs carried in BTRs/BMPs and half a bty of ZSU-23-4), Engrs (a Pln) and Chem Recce. A Vanguard Coy would be detached fm the Advance Guard Bn and for a MRR this would consist of a MR Coy, a Tk Pln, Arty (observers & prob a bty in Direct Spt), AD (prob a sect of MANPADs), prob Engrs (a route clearance sect) and poss Chem Recce. The Main Body consisted of the other 2 Bns, each with their attachment of a Coy of Tks/MR as required.

My memory is getting pretty rusty but once upon a time all the above was at ther forefront of my mind ready for instant recall and in much greater detail!

So for the 84-85 time frame, if I just ordered T-64s til the cows come home I would be okay I presume?

Yes, plenty of T-64!

Tally Ho!

Dude… you are batting 100%. For BMPs… mostly 1s with some 2s mixed in… They were mixed. BMP1s would have been upgraded to shoot AT4/5 by this time.

BTRs were 60s… I don't think that many 70s were every really produced… they were a horrible idea. (Not that there is much difference in combat…)

Artillery is all over the place. Just use what you like… you probably won't be wrong as long as it is a lot!

Joe Collins

Wouldn't it depend on the unit? Didn't the Pact second and third line units still have older equipment?

On imagery BMP Bns lived in sheds with either BMP-1 or 2 not a mix within the Bn lines. Usual mix was 2 Bns BMP-1 and one BMP-2. The only place a mix of turrets was observed was the Regt Recce Coy with a mix of BMP-1/BMP-2 and BRM series.

Tally Ho!

Nick,
I don't recall that many BMP-2's in GSFG in early '87 so I'd think it a fair assumption to say that there would have been relatively few units with BMP-2 in '84 & '85. ('84/'85 is strictly before my time, and yours too!) I agree with your 'no mixing variants within MR Bn' comment.

Joe,
As far as I recall, all the BMP-1's in GSFG were still equipped with AT-3 Sagger missiles and only the BMP-2 had AT-4 Spigot & AT-5 Spandrel; the upgrade you're talking about was later. As for arty; the phrase 'wheels with wheels and tracks with tracks' holds good for most formations, but there were exceptions, especially whilst equipments were being upgraded.

Bede,
All of GSFG consisted of 'first line' units. Depending on whether or not it was a main axis of advance or not, the 2nd and 3rd operational echelons could be '2nd line' formations arriving from Russia equipped with T-55s and T-62s, but the initial thrust would have been made by GSFG formations.

I've just seen the following in Wikipedia regarding 3SA: "In 1984 a decision was made to re-equip the formations with T-80BV variants (10th Guards Tank Division), replacing the T-64s". This matches my recollection that a number of the Tk regts in 1987 were equipped with T-80 variants, a proportion of which (possibly 1/3) had ERA. we assessed at the time that the ERA-equipped vehs would be more likely to carry the long-range AT-8 Songster with intention of engaging NATO MBTs outside of APFSDS range, however, the topography of western Germany meant there were v v few locations where such long engagement ranges would have been possible.

Enough reminiscing; back to work…

In the mid 80s I thought some of the GSFG MRR Dvisions had T-62s in their regimental tank battalions even if the divisional tank regiment had T-64s?

My chaps are for 1981, so tend to have more old junk including towed 122s etc.

Official removal date for the T62 was 1984… end of year. Some kept them later… from Russians I have communicated with… this was on purpose as they were used in the ITB… which were used as training battalions in practice. It was a good basic training tank.

BMP1 upgrades were started in the very early 80s. 85-86 would have seen a good number upgraded to that standard. One can argue about the percentages… I've never been able to pin this down…

BMP2s were uncommon but not rare. They came in fits and starts.

The big ramp up for BMP2s was 87 along with the T80s.

Joe Collins

This may be of some help.

Warsaw Pact Order of Battle June 1989:
link
Group of Soviet Forces in Germany (Western Group of Forces).
link
ST 100-7 OPFOR Battle Book.
link

And do not forget:

FM 100-2-1
PDF link
FM 100-2-2
PDF link
FM 100-2-3
PDF link

In a previous thread I wrote down the readings for a MRR from rather a nice image!

Tally Ho!

Joe,
I must admit that I never heard of any BMP-1's being fitted with anything other than AT-3 Sagger whilst I was playing my bit at the 'frontline of the cold war'! Today I googled and various sources confirmed your statement that later variants were fitted with AT-4/AT-5; however, what is your source for BMP-1's having AT-4/AT-5 in the mid '80s? I'm wondering if they were only opposite the US sector at this time.

Nick,
Do you recall ever seeing BMP-1 fitted with an AT-4/AT-5 launch tube on imagery from this timeframe? (And yes, it's me!)

11th ACR,
Great links to the FMs – thanks. I wish I'd kept some of the AFMs we used back in the day but I had no idea that they would be of interest to me so many years later!

Yea I kept most of my FM's and TM's.

They come in real handy.

Perhaps I will have to adjust my time frame a bit as I mostly have BMP-2 at this point!

I cannot remember BMP-1Ps in 3SA,

I still have some of the good publications! (In evidence in some of the latest Gyros Teller Game phots!)

Tally Ho!

Hello all,

I've been trying to do a bit of research on this myself. I'm working on putting together a late 1983 project, simulating if the Able Archer exercise went south. I'm starting in the south with the Americans in CENTAG, then will expand to include Germans, and finally NORTHAG formations. I'd like to bring what I have to the table, and see if anybody has any contradictory information. Primarily though, it boils down to one question:

"Did 8GA and 1GTA receive T-64s at any point?"

My findings are NO, they did not, they went straight from T-62 to T-80. I'll lay out my logic…

Based on the excellent thread referenced ( TMP link though unfortunately no hard copy references are mentioned there ) and BRIXMIS and USMLM reports from this thread ( link ) it is generally agreed upon that:

-2GTA, 3SA, 20GA started to receive shipments of T-64As in 1976. Trying to piece together raw numbers and intelligence, I figure that all line units in these armies were T-64A complete around 1980-1981, and began to receive T-64Bs on a basis of one company per battalion in 1982. Assuming an inflow of about 300 tanks per year ( which is about what the Kharkov plant was producing of T-64As by 1981 ) , most battalions would have their allotment by 1985 or so.

Now T-80Bs didnt start making an appearance until 1983 in 8GA and 1GTA. In the first thread, it is mentioned that there were only 838 T-80s by the end of 1986, which is an average of 209 tanks delivered per year for the 4 years between 83 and 86 ( inclusive ) . There are BRIXMIS and USMLM reports of T-80s in 9TD and 11GTD in 1983/4, as well as near Halle ( which I assume means 27GMRD had them as well ) . Until 1982 27GMRD was a part of 1GTA, then moved to 8GA, so I'm assuming that 1GTA was the priority for T-80s, and 27GMRD received them because they were initially in that Army and the shipment wasn't changed.

It also says that in 1985 that T-80s began to go to the other armies in GSFG, which would slow the re-equipping of 8GA and 1GTA even further.

Of the approximately 7,700 tanks in the GSFG in 1985, the northern 3 armies had about 3,500, the southern 2 about 2,000, and the rest were training/depot/tanks in repair.

Using the average of 209 T-80s per year, the southern 2 armies would have AT MOST 630 T-80s by the end of 1985, which would mean the almost 1400 others would still be T-62s. On the surface it would make sense that these would be replaced by the T-64As being replaced by T-64Bs up north, but anybody who has even been in the military knows that this is no simple task, especially so in the Soviet Army I imagine.

However I can not find a single piece of evidence stating T-64s were with 8GA or 1GTA, no pictures, no intel reports, nothing. All we would need is one instance of a unit in these armies having T-64s to open the floodgates and disprove the theory.

SOOOO… I ask you knowledgeable gentlemen, do you know of any T-64s in these armies facing CENTAG? If we can't find any, and if that 838 number is true ( I would sure love to see a reference on that seeing as how pretty much the whole theory is based on that ) , then the only conclusion is that these armies had T-62s well into the mid-late 1980s before the big T-80 push swept them away post 87.

Any thoughts you all have would be greatly appreciated!

Was looking at a nice image of T-64 being backloaded onto rail flats in Hungary,

Tally Ho!

Hmmm, can't say, but did see an anecdote that while the T-64s were available back in the 1960s, they really didn't get deployed in large numbers until the late 1970s (1976 for GSFG with T-64A, and 1981 for T-64B), due to teething problems.

Can't recall where I ran across that, and have no idea if it is accurate, but it could have some bearing on the issue. Wikipedia provides the above dates, and info (though it also goes on to state the T-72 was the main tank for the Soviets, which appears to be incorrect, at least as far as the GSFG is concerned – T72s were produced in large numbers for Warsaw Pact "allies").

If true, then T-62s do seem to be more likely, before the switch to the T-80s.

I know when I was in high school, and college, the T-62 was billed in most rules sets, and news reports/magazines/books as the chief main battle tank for the Soviets.