"British Tanks in Barbarossa" Topic

I found these pics of A-13 Cruisers in German service Holland and Russia in 1940-41 (presumably captured in France)?I think they were converted to flamewthrower tanks and 9 served with Abt.(f) 100, attached to 18th Pz Div.Presumably part of Guderian's command, judging by the prominent G on the turret.

Would be fun to field them, does anyone know if any other German units used them?

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Glad you posted anyway – I had no idea they were used. Great find. :-)

Thanks Dom – I've done a bit more googling and updated the post as a result!

I doubt they were flamethrower conversions though – each flammpanzer company was supposed to have a weapons platoon of regular panzer II gun tanks – I expect the cruisers substituted for them rather than flame tanks.

Aha! That explains why they seem to still have 2 pdrs!

Yep – armament looks unchanged – amazing that there are so many photos. (Thank you anonymous German happy snapper….). From Googling it looks like they only had 9, possibly refitted with Panzer II tracks, which would ease supply at least if workable.

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Pity the German supply officer.

A13s without Caunter camo! Hallelujah!

Yes, command tanks for Abt100. They didn't last long, breaking down fairly quickly. Which seems to have been the standard end for all A13s regardless of ownership……

Piers Brand did a superb 20mm version of these recently, which should be on the forum somewhere. TMP link

Pity the German supply officer.

Depends on whether he has a German machinist in his unit, or just some country bumpkin…

Fabulous, panzer grey A13s, complete a big G painted on.

Interesting, it's a dangerous page according to Trend.

Hmm, no alarm bells going in through Google, and webutations and trustedsource both say it's fine. Odd.

Yes, I have had no problems either – I think Piers probably used it too as a source for his A-13s as his blurb pretty much matches that on the site.

They have drum cupolas – taken from another tank, or made up especially?

Not sure on the white patch – doesn't look like a censor's mark, (too regular, looks digital) so I have a suspicion it may be that someone's just blanked over a copyright stamp on it at some point.)

I really wish you'd not started this thread though Archeopteryx, as I'm getting funny ideas now, and I'm really not sure I have the conversion skills needed, especially for the towing hitch assembly for the Renault UE trailer….

PS – Anyone got any ideas on the turret number tentatively marked as 26? on the Beutepanzer site. I'm wondering if the 6 might be a 0 that got mangled somehow, for a supernumerary tank in the company HQ.

With 9 tanks on the books, the other 8 are clearly a gun tank platoon for each of the first and second flame companies (141-4 and 241-4) either replacing the usual 5-tank Panzer II platoon, or possibly in addition to it, with the Panzer IIs becoming 5th platoon.

Dom, I've already looking at bunch of Skytrex A-13.

What about the 105 SPGs on Mk VI light tank chassis?

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Apparently used by 221 ID up to 1942 in Russia.

Also surviving 3 weeks of Barbarossa is probably not as awful as it seems – a lot happened in those three weeks, and in the absence of spares or ammunition, they were probably taken out of the line as they needed repairs but not fixed, those that survived that is

As for the towing hitch, I think brass rod + the hinge at the end of the arm of a pair of cheap reading glasses might do it ;)

I've fancied the Vickers with 105mm ever since it was introduced on World Of Tanks last year, but that is waaaaaaaaaaaay beyond anything I could convert, so unless one of the 15mm manufacturers goes nuts, it's not happening for me. :-(

You might be onto something for the tow hitch – it's obvious that the trailers were only used when moving base, not in action, so the frame and hook could easily be omitted, but they look kinda neat…. Stowage racks are scratch buildable, and BF do a set of cupolas, so I'm beginning to talk myself into this. I might even be able to get the right markings…. ;-)

Agree on 105. Not done WoTs so new to me.

Yes, be good to give the HQ tank – if that's what it is – one of those hooks.

There is also a brief video clip of a Dingo with a recce unit in Lithuania in 1941 on the site too, and pc of a prime mover based on a turretless Matilda II in southern Russia in '42. Lots of fun to be had.

Yes, I remember that link Etranger. Some very nice work there. No surprise the Germans would use captured equipment, it seemed to be their predilection. And a lot of US and UK stuff was Lend-Leased to the USSR too.

Are you sure these aren't converted to flame tanks? If not what is the thing on the left of the main gun looking from the front? Whatever it is looks like it replaces the coax MG. Seen best in the first picture on this page.
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Also looks like some appliqué armour over the existing mantlet.

Fred,

I'm pretty sure its a Vickers MMG coax (used on early Brit tanks before the BESA was available).

James

Yep what he said – the Cruiser tank Mk IV had Vickers coax MGs, and were the BEF norm. The IV A replaced it with a BESA, but most of 1st Armoured's Mk IV were the Vickers equipped early models, with a smaller number of IV A.

Possibly James, but you don't see the bulky jacket on the original captured vehicles seen best in the first pic on this page.
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Different model Fred – the first page look like mainly or all photos of the IV A, but the Pz Abt 100 (f) ones are the earlier model – you can see the same turret in British service:

Looking at the first pic on this page again it is an interesting example.
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As well as the bulky MG jacket or whatever it is, there is a horseshoe on the turret front and as well as a muzzle cover some sort of figurine is strapped to the barrel of the 2pdr. Then there are the 2 racks of jerrycans on the turret sides and at least one on the right track cover, I assume matched by one the other side. Why all the fuel? Was it to refuel the Flammpanzer II's? No wonder they mostly burnt out according to the text.

They used trailers for refuelling the flamethrowers – the turret racks may well be water rather than fuel, but either way were probably just fitted with a view on the march distances involved in Barbarossa.

Looking at those photos again, it looks like turret number 142 and 144 are IV A turrets retrofitted with Vickers, while the others seem to be the early models.

What about the 105 SPGs on Mk VI light tank chassis?

Sounds like typical Jerry behaviour with any tracked vehicle that they could find: remove original turret, build a new superstructure and mount biggest gun that you can find in the warehouse. Voila, instant self-propelled gun!

I am quite sure that the original British designers would have been at least slightly miffled to hear what happened to their tanks. "Oh mine, old bean, no way that delicate frame could handle such ferocious recoil. Besides, would it not be unfair to shoot people with so big guns?"

They were converted by Alfred Becker – at the time commander of the artillery battalion that got them. Of course later he was transferred to France to create equipment for 21st Panzer amongst others, where his love of obsolete captured vehicles and angular armoured plates was cruelly suppressed…. ;-)

Another front on view for you Fred…

Any idea what happened to Major Becker after the war Dom? Wiki's biography doesn't enlighten me. link

Oddly I was trying to look up the very same thing earlier – was kind of curious about his fate, but drew a total blank. :-(

Looks like the family firm is still in business & producing appropriately enough airconditioning, mechanical devices and vending machines. link

took a while, but have just ordered some of the new BF Flamingos and Zvezda A-13s to make this unit!

Ha, a thread on T-70s that took an odd turn has just prompted me to look this one up again, especially as I noticed the Flammpanzer II news item a few weeks ago…. ;-)

PS – Having looked at the Zvezda A13s, hmm…. :-) The track guards will be easy enough to remove (a major problem with using the Battlefront one) and it's probably even doable cutting the turret down for the A models. Seriously tempting….

Anyone else notice the Soviet Ssh-36 helmet hanging on the front of the turret in the first shot? I wonder if that's some landser's trophy or if one of the crew was hanging on to it in case he had to dismount.

Martin

Interesting to think about the possibility of these British vehicles under German control encountering Soviets in British lend-lease tanks.

That would be one strange scenario …..

B

Interesting to think about the possibility of these British vehicles under German control encountering Soviets in British lend-lease tanks.

Interesting indeed, but unlikely. LL British tanks didn't show up until December 1941 around Moscow. I doubt any of the German British tanks would have made it that far.

But still, tantalizing, as you say.

Yes I think the A-13s (and most of the flamingos) had expired after 6 weeks of fighting/Russian roads. The flamingo's proved too fragile for the close quarters assault role, and the A-13s, which were equally fragile but meant to protect the flamingos, suffered the same fate. The next batch of flammpanzers were Renault Char B2 conversions – which probably says something.