billclo | 28 Jan 2014 6:09 a.m. PST |
I've gotten into Full Thrust, and one thing that I was wondering about is this: There isn't much evolution of the ship designs over time, except for the UNSC, which I would expect to see more of. I would think for example, that the period after the Siege of Sol and the reduction of the Kra-vak threat, there would be some improvements or changes in Human ship design philosophy. I think it would make for an interesting exercise for people to come up with ship designs that while retaining the flavor of a particular faction, would show evolution in weapons selection/design philosophy. There is such with the UNSC, being a more modern fleet. Example: The NAC, had ships with shields and armor. But they probably found these of little use against the Kra-Vak with their kinetic-based weapons that ignored shields and made swiss cheese out of armor. So they'd drop shields and armor and make the hull larger or put more weapons on the ship. Which then begs the question of what would they do after the War was over, keep the new ship design paradigm, or go back to the old traditional format, being as most militaries seem to be conservative and seem to have the tendency to be ready to fight the last war, not the next one. :) It might also allow for the use of non-traditional miniatures for the game, showing a new direction in ship design philosophy for the different factions? |
kreoseus2 | 28 Jan 2014 6:35 a.m. PST |
It would be nice to see national fleet variants to counter alien threats but perhaps that is the rationale behind the existance of the UNSC fleet at all ? Phil |
TheStarRanger | 28 Jan 2014 6:37 a.m. PST |
The designs on the Full Thrust Fleet Resource ( fullthrust.star-ranger.com ) for the new miniature designs for the main 4 human powers are all Xeno War era designs. The NAC as your example reduce their use of screens and armour but do not move fully away from their design philosophy in Fleet Book 1. Even thought the humans unite to fight the KV, they keep watch on each other so screens and armour are still useful against each other. Post Xeno War is an era that really has not been touched by any official or semi-official background yet so we don't quite know what is happening yet and if old rivalries continue or if they change. So lots of room to play around in. |
billclo | 28 Jan 2014 6:38 a.m. PST |
I could easily see more innovation in the UNSC over the national fleets. After all the UNSC probably thinks it needs to maintain a tech edge so it can try to keep ahead in the arms race. They do seem to be the self-appointed interstellar Police force, after all. ;) So it might be interesting to see where their ship designs evolved beyond what is shown on the Fleet resource page/Beta Test material from Star Ranger. |
jimklein1966 | 28 Jan 2014 6:48 a.m. PST |
billco- I actually did this with my American Republic fleet (formerly the Cal-Tex alliance) The fleet book goes from the hand-me-down ships they got from the NAC, to their first home built designs using off the shelf tech to the more advanced refits designed specifically to counter the Kra' Vak threat. Its pretty lengthy, 54 pages, but includes back ground for the AMR as a whole, and for each individual ship. its not 'polished' quite yet but if ur interested I'll send it to you. |
billclo | 28 Jan 2014 9:09 a.m. PST |
No hurry, Jim. I can wait til it's polished up. I may fool around with further refitting the UNSC ships a little bit, once I get my insectoid ships/background ready to send to you. :) |
TheBeast | 28 Jan 2014 1:35 p.m. PST |
Not me! I WANT NOW!!! *ahem* Sorry, be delighted to see either, Jim or Bill, when you feel ready. Doug |
jimklein1966 | 28 Jan 2014 5:06 p.m. PST |
Billico, i second that i want to see ur bug SSDs too! |
jimklein1966 | 28 Jan 2014 8:24 p.m. PST |
|
Gorkathustra | 29 Jan 2014 7:54 p.m. PST |
Was there ever any background set after the Xeno war? If Remember it ended with Kra'vak laying siege to Earth? |
jimklein1966 | 29 Jan 2014 8:24 p.m. PST |
Thats where it ends yea. John said has mentioned that the kra vak laid sieg to earth and later just left. A couple ppl have suggestions for an expanded time line but i dont think anyone has ever sat down to do get it done. Would be a really fun project. |
billclo | 30 Jan 2014 9:13 a.m. PST |
I'm going to fudge it in my timeline, and say that the appearance of a more dangerous enemy of the Kra-Vak caused them to pull forces back from Sol to attempt to deal with the new interlopers (my Insectoids). :) The Insectoids actually have a decent ability to take reduced damage from the Kra-Vak's K-Guns via their special shields (halve K-gun damage), so the Kra-Vak have a harder time of it versus against Human vessels. |
jimklein1966 | 30 Jan 2014 11:03 a.m. PST |
Cool, and here I was going to say they went back home to 'spawn' like evil space going trout. heh |
billclo | 30 Jan 2014 11:36 a.m. PST |
That should have said "so the Kra-Vak have a harder time of it versus Insectoid vessels instead of human vessels." |
Zen Ghost | 31 Jan 2014 4:05 a.m. PST |
I designed a completely different alternative to the current Japanese SSDs. It favored PT vice beams. I also played around with the alternative weapons arc and favors a broadside engagement. I avoided the use of the Hyper Spatial, whatever that weapon is, in the philosophy that Japan would follow a more traditional line of weapon development, similar to the real world. BTW, Bill, are you attending GZG ECC? You will find lots of folks to discuss your thoughts over a game and a beer. -ZG |
Zen Ghost | 31 Jan 2014 4:12 a.m. PST |
As for the rest of the factions, if its like real life, military budgets are always constrained, so after Sol, I would say that R&D efforts would slow down and that introductions of new capabilities and weapons would slow as well, in order to rebuild the fleets. Shield users will shift away and favor more armor, but not completely. -ZG |
billclo | 31 Jan 2014 4:20 a.m. PST |
Zen, sorry, but I can't make it this year. Already committed my out of town convention time to Origins. Though this may be my last Origins, because the quality of the con has gone way down, IMHO. In order to allow me to go to Origins, the wife has to schedule one of her vacation weeks so she can stay home to watch our son. But next year, he's about old enough (6) to go to an out of town convention. I'll know for sure if I'm attending Origins when the events schedule is published, but it is looking iffy. But if a 2015 date for GZG ECC can be published before the end of this year, so she can schedule some of her vacation time for the 2015 GZG-Con I may well make an effort to attend next year's event. |
TheBeast | 03 Feb 2014 6:56 a.m. PST |
I've gotten into Full Thrust, and one thing that I was wondering about is this: There isn't much evolution of the ship designs over time, except for the UNSC, which I would expect to see more of. Let this go on for quite awhile, been most interesting, but there were a couple of points I did want to make from the beginning. One does need to put some distance between Full Thrust: The Game, and what we fanboys call the Tuffleyverse. Simple, adaptable, the rules aren't those ships; the ships are based on the rules, of course. And, available models from GZG. He IS in the business of selling those models, and I've bought plenty. But, he's always said the rules were for whatever you wanted to play. The Fleet Book Fleets (someone should name a band
) give the impression of a snap-shot. Some ships are referred to as either reaching the end of their usefulness, or having just replaced something else. The Tuffleyverse is in flux, but as has been seen in wet Naval development, there tends to be periods of rapid change, and periods where change seems to need digesting. I play the FBF as running during the latter period. Otherwise, I have to do a MESS of scratchbuilding, of which I suck. I enjoy trying, but the results
Doug |
Lion in the Stars | 04 Feb 2014 10:13 a.m. PST |
The Tuffleyverse is in flux, but as has been seen in wet Naval development, there tends to be periods of rapid change, and periods where change seems to need digesting. Yep. Cases in point: rapid change from 1860s introduction of ironclads to HMS Dreadnaught, then relative stasis until 1941-42 and the fleet carrier revolution, and relative stasis again since 1945. And during the pre-Dreadnaught era, there were ships that were obsolete by the time they were commissioned. post-Dreadnaught, battleships and cruisers were pretty static, and were generally still serviceable and competitive at the start of WW2. The two areas that got a lot of development post-Dreadnaught were submarines and torpedoes. But subs from the 1914 U-boats all the way through to the Nautilus were all of pretty much the same form, just evolutionary improvements to the basic Diesel-electric sub. Not the revolutionary change of the Nautilus' nuclear power. And torpedoes got a whole lot of work, particularly the Japanese Long Lance. While the propulsion method/technology of modern torps is different, most modern heavyweight torpedoes are comparable to the Long Lance in terms of range and explosive payload. Personally, I like the 1930s Japanese idea and feel of fleet combat for space battles: Long Lances as primary, long-range shipkillers, and an array of medium 'guns' as you get closer. |
Panfilov | 07 Feb 2014 10:32 p.m. PST |
Probably because if they let people "Design Their Own" they would fall into the trap that killed Trillion Credit Squadron (GDW); Someone would figure out an "Optimum" set of stats. |
Panfilov | 07 Feb 2014 10:38 p.m. PST |
BTW, the Long Lance (vs Myth) was pretty much a failure as a ship killer; About 5% hits overall. What did in the US in Ironbottom Sound was the Japanese getting in the first Salvo at knife fighting range; And the Americans had a whole new navy by 1943, a production feat the Japanese could not equal. I know, we all played that game at Little Wars, the ABDA flotilla steaming back and forth engaging in Long Range gunnery until the (Japanese) torpedoes sink everyone. But the real ship killers there appear to have been the Japanese heavy cruisers with airborne spotters, precisely the kind of engagement the US Battlefleet planned on. |
TheBeast | 09 Feb 2014 6:38 a.m. PST |
About 5% hits overall. Fair's fair; from what I've read, that's actually pretty good hitting for surface-fired torps in the heat of battle. And it tended to take few good hits by them to ruin a ship's day. However, they were very much better than anything the US had, but they weren't magic. if they let people "Design Their Own" they would fall into the trap
THAT'S an excellent point! Design-Your-Own is fine for occasional added-for-spice design in a special scenario, but whole fleets can tend for some real wackiness. By the way, there still tends not to be an Optimum, just Optimum against some general purpose. Wackiness tends to show up in rock-paper-scissors balances, let's leave out Spock and the lizard for now. Please note, I like watching the occasional 'cheese of the moment' contests. A little wacky can be a good thing. Doug |
kreoseus2 | 09 Feb 2014 2:22 p.m. PST |
Like our friend with a battleship armed entirely with class 1 beam weapons ? It didn't go well.
|
TheBeast | 11 Feb 2014 11:25 a.m. PST |
The designs on the Full Thrust Fleet Resource ( fullthrust.star-ranger.com ) for the new miniature designs for the main 4 human powers are all Xeno War era designs. Under 'Existing Fleets', this page also has speculative designs mentioned but not stat-ed out from the Fleet Books, for those ship descriptions which '
are referred to as either reaching the end of their usefulness, or having just replaced something else.' I think it would make for an interesting exercise
which has been started. ;->= Doug |
billclo | 11 Feb 2014 12:45 p.m. PST |
Preliminary play testing of the Insectoids is proceeding, and I think that I'll be ready to send a copy to Jim Klein in the near future, for further testing/a different set of eyes on the material. :) Tricky business balancing them so they're tough to beat, but beatable vs too hard and people don't want to play with them :( I am surprised that some of the ships in the Star Ranger page have not been refitted though, like the Light Cruiser, Heavy Cruiser, Battlecruiser. I realize that that material is still in playtest though. :) |
Lion in the Stars | 12 Feb 2014 9:08 a.m. PST |
About 5% hits overall. Fair's fair; from what I've read, that's actually pretty good hitting for surface-fired torps in the heat of battle. And it only tended to take one good hit by them to ruin a ship's day.
Fixed that for you. Long lances could one-shot anything cruiser-sized or smaller because of that huge warhead (25% larger than the 21" torps in service with most other nations) link That's nothing to sneer at. |
Lfseeney | 17 Feb 2014 12:26 a.m. PST |
When having design your own stuff, I tend to ask that Each race take 1 or 2 Advantages and 3-4 Disadvantages. As no one group is best at everything. Also like that the designs cover at the least, Most Deployed Units A couple Specialized Units One or Two Flagship style Things like that. |